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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Melan" data-source="post: 2960289" data-attributes="member: 1713">Right, in an attempt to return to our original subject, I will try to comment on grodog's points:This is in many ways one of the initial assumptions of the thread (and elaborated upon in my second long post) - that the dungeon itself is an interesting and entertaining challenge, not merely a backdrop or "skin" to a series of encounters. Instead of considering a moderately challenging map as an inherently unfun thing keeping you away from the "good stuff" (encounters) as many people here seem to say, I consider it a part of the fun.Moving on from philosophical points, on to application - after all, that makes theory meaningful. The three points you mention are perfect examples of spicing up dungeon design - they embody the more abstract principles I outlined in the OP. The first two are especially relevant, because using the vertical dimension is so rarely seen in most modern - and even most old - dungeons. In my experience, it is a very good tool to introduce complexity into a map without making it frustrating. A single staircase at the "end of the level" doesn't break up a linear pattern, but let us assume there are four connections - two stairs at different locations, a secret chute and a multi-level cavern room which provides access to the lower level and (if the players have their characters look up) a chimney to an upper one. This simple addition doesn't make the structure of the individual levels any more complex. However, it greatly improves the freedom of the party. They may go down one staircase, find the multi-level cavern later on and go up to a previously unexplored part of the first level. In my experience, players love this kind of thing. Maybe it is feeling smart, I don't know.Now, let us enhance the complexity even further and introduce multiple levels, three down and two up. It could be possible that some connections will completely bypass a level and arrive at a lower one. Some levels may essentially be split up... you couldn't go from one end to the other (or you could only do so by finding a secret passage, maybe through a crawlway or a submerged passage between pools of water). There may be isolated sections also, and they may be secret - and thus provide a discovery - merely because they can only be reached from below. What we have just done is created a genuinely old school dungeon (at least in form): we did this without introducing unfun elements like unmappable mazes or endless corridors. Even if the total size of the dungeon is cca. 15-30 keyed areas to a level, the end result is a freeform environment where no two parties will have the same experience. Of course, these maps may still contain "nodes" of importance, where the DM may hide McGuffins, or which are simply visited by almost everyone for various reasons. On the other side, there may be places whose discovery will feel like an accomplishment - without resorting to secret doors.</blockquote>

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