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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6307490" data-attributes="member: 4937">I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on that because it's the first time I've heard the terms applied to RPGs.  It would seem to me that normally in the classical RPG mode, the players are mostly mimetic while the game master is mostly diegetic save when he speaks 'in character' as an NPC.   But, in another sense, depending on what you mean by the terms, is an RPG mimetic since everyone is pretending not to be who they are?   And as film uses the terms, the divide seems to be between things that in an RPG are IC and OOC.   So I'm not sure where you are going with that, but it's got my brain fizzing.Again, more questions than answers here.   If the rules aren't for working out what's right for the game and the circumstances, what are they for and don't we need some new rules?   Are you saying that the rules aren't broke because of DM fiat?That almost sounds like a statement of Celebrim's Second Law of RPGs.   Let's say that I grant you that system doesn't matter, how do you work out what the right story is?Possibly.  Lucas does a lot of showing and very little telling in those scenes.  It's clear Vader doesn't really expect Luke to die.  Especially in the original cuts, Vader is moving to rescue Luke.   It is true that Luke is out of resources and defeated, and the only real question is whether he'll end up with Dad (and ultimately be converted to the Dark Side) or whether Luke's loyalty to his friends will be rewarded when we get the Leia reveal.That depends.  In a superheroes game, he's just pulled an 'obscure death' option, which consistency demands he survive in some improbable fashion.   Since IMO Star Wars is firmly and wholly in the fantasy genera, his surviving a fall from a very high place is consistent with the rules of fantasy.   It would be wholly inconsistent with the rules of detective fiction, where falls are invariably instantly lethal.Luke is spared by Leia.  Explain what you mean by diegetic in this case, please.   Also, if the Leia reveal is deus ex machina (in RPG terms, she's already a 'player character'), isn't the Vader reveal also a sort of deus ex machina.  Afterall, if Vader isn't Luke's father, then surely he would have killed Luke without mercy before this point.   But at least with the Vader reveal, in context it all makes sense and was clearly foreshadowed, and in the context of the Vader reveal the Leia reveal is also clearly something that was there all along.   Isn't there a difference between Deus ex Mechina and Chekhov's Gun?   I'm hesitant to fully endorse any simple comparison between RPGs as art and other mediums as art, particularly in the areas where RPGs diverge from other artistic mediums.   In an RPG, the audience is a participant in the creation of the art.  The overall story is one which is collectively constructed, and there are aesthetic agenda's present in the audience of a game that just aren't present in the case of film.  The audience of a movie isn't eager to see if he actually can navigate his way to the end of the story through his wit and cunning.  How does it change your viewpoint of this scene if it is Vader and not Luke which is the PC?</blockquote>

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