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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6308565" data-attributes="member: 87792">On this we actually agree.  The 90s were in my opinion the nadir of game design.  The two biggest games of the 90s, 2E AD&D and WoD, both officially advocated that you routinely ignored the rules in order to obtain the result you want and to me that's anathema to good game design.  (My favourite game at the time was GURPS).  Where we disagree is that to me at least there is a vast difference between saying "That game is not very well designed" and "That is not an RPG".  Especially when they were sold as RPGs, marketed as RPGs, and both 2E and the WoD were accepted by almost all RPG players as RPGs.  There is no central RPG Commission that sits down and determines what an RPG is - and if there were it would have been TSR, who was publishing 2E as an RPG.  And to me any definition of RPGs that pushes out 90%+ of current RPG players is empirically wrong.And here's another point of disagreement.  I don't believe that the way 2E was designed by Zeb Cook was for the same sort of play as that designed by Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax in the early 1970s.  For that matter I don't believe that 1e AD&D was designed with the same intent as Brown Box D&D.  3.0's design goals were different again, as were 4E's.  (And arguably 3.5's).  Nevertheless they are all legitimate forms of D&D.  And all very definitely part of the hobby.Brown Box D&D has the role of referee as you indicate.  As the RPG community separated from the wargame community it grew out of the role of the DM grew - D&D players were more likely to be SF fans than they were to be wargamers at heart and they wanted different things out of RPGs.  That doesn't mean that you can say that they weren't roleplayers, merely that they weren't wargamers.Finally I believe that saying the hobby should stick to its roots makes about as much sense as saying that we should all drive round in cars that predate the Ford Model T.  Not that I have anything against classic car enthusiasts.First, actively having to stop to consult rules for more than a few seconds at a time, or calculations that can't be done almost instantly.Second, the rules producing ... unexpected ... outcomes that are anti-thematic.Third, someone playing a Kender (or other griefing character).Fourth, working on that railroad.  The GM having a story that will be told or there being a badly designed adventure path where the PCs are spectators.The Gaming Den is 3E exclusive.  It's the way they approach 3.5 that is close to yours.  DM as an impartial arbiter, strict following of the rules.</blockquote>

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