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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rod Staffwand" data-source="post: 6310137" data-attributes="member: 6776279">Oh, wow, catching up on this thread after a few days off, and it's pretty dizzying. There was some sort of tangent that included the Forge and the Storyteller games of 90s that I'm still trying to figure out...I think the crux is: D&D is an "Role-Playing Game" wherein "role-playing" is entirely optional (in the sense that you're required to create a personality, history and complex relationship webs for your character). Holmes D&D doesn't even mention "role-playing" in that sense. It goes through character creation and there's passing mention of playing "bold adventurers" or some such, but nothing that prompts playing your character any different than you would a war game asset (i.e. optimally with regard to succeeding at the challenges placed before you).Indeed, I don't believe ANY edition of D&D gives mechanical weight to role-playing AT ALL, save for perhaps suggestion the DM take such things into account when determining results. The closest the rules have is Alignment, which should not be conflated with 'personality' or 'character'. Not all LG characters have the same personality.However, I believe the custom of "acting as your character" probably started very early on in the RPG life cycle. You inevitably get players who go: "Brontar CHARGE!" in the face of overwhelming odds. For many, playing someone else and not simply using a character as the game-world stand in for yourself has a VERY strong appeal. DMs also, in seeking to capture the feeling of their favorite fantasy stories, write more complicated narratives replete with complex NPC motivations and reams of backstory rather than keeping with the "PCs vs. the Dungeon" setup of the game's origin.[SIDENOTE: This is to say nothing of players whose primary motivation is getting vicarious thrills from taking risks. To them, success or failure or the life or death of their PC is secondary to finding out "what happens if someone sits on the lich's throne". They can't be said to be playing a game in the wargame sense.]I think we can all agree that these customs grew in popularity, with later versions of D&D explicit mentioning creating personalities for your character and so on (I believe 2E on, at least did this). "Role-playing" became the norm. The Storyteller games decided to bring this to the forefront, as did Dragonlance. However, these still aren't "story-games". Story games are typified not just be "role-playing", but consensual role-playing and world-building where the focus is fully on creating a compelling story. This is (presumably) the end point of the continuum where the game mechanics are written with this consideration in mind.So we end up with three (very rough) categories:1. ROLL PLAYING: Pragmatic play using player agency and character capabilities to survive challenges and gain power. I use the name 'Roll Playing' as a convenience here, not as an insult.2. ROLE PLAYING: As above, but incorporating story-telling elements such as alternate personalities and literary framing devices.3. STORY GAMING: Consensual story creation, typically judged by entertainment value of the story rather than achieving goals.D&D has very decidedly moved into Category 2, but can easily be played as Category 1 and Category 3. You can favor one over another, but you can't objectively say that one is better than another. You can't say that there's One True Way when there are literally thousands of players out there enjoying the hell out of each style.As for the notion that the Categories are so disparate that they don't belong in the same hobby...that's nonsense. Chutes and Ladders and Arkham Horror are both boardgames, and yet wildly different. Same with RPGs. Most players might have a preferred playstyle, but are more than willing to delve into other styles as the occasion warrants.They can all be called "games", perhaps not as a competitive endeavor but at least as amusements or past times (also a definition of game). They all create "story" in the sense that you can always relate the "story" of when your 1st level party ran into that troll. And they are all typified by taking on an individualized avatar with far more complexity than a mere game piece (ala a Chess pawn or that Monopoly car that everyone wants to be).</blockquote>

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