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<blockquote data-quote="Minigiant" data-source="post: 9591591" data-attributes="member: 63508"><p>Fans want to see (and fight) the 11-20 content.</p><p></p><p>I keep saying. D&D and D&D clones need to <strong>grow up</strong> and <strong>grow some</strong>.</p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Define what the PC equivalent of an Archmage is for a<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Pure Martial Warrior</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Pure Martial Skill monkey/Thief/Assassin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Half Magical Warrior</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Define what the Monster equivalent of a Lich is for a<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Pure Martial Warrior</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Pure Martial Skill monkey/Thief/Assassin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Half Magical Warrior</li> </ol></li> </ol><p>Every other major Western fantasy IP that goes to Epics has done it. Warhammer. Star Wars. Warcraft. Greek myth. Norse Myth.</p><p></p><p>The fanbase loves it's broken magic. So TSR, WOTC, and everyone else who wants the full fanbase has to PC warriors and Monster warriors who can wade through the broken magic and keep coming to have epic duels with each other.</p><p></p><p>This is something <strong>MMOs excelled</strong> at. All archetypes had PC and enemy variants. You could play a Mac level fighter or mage and fight a fighter or mage at the middle or end of the dungeon. Each class had a tactical purpose in the PC party AND a puzzle to solve as an enemy.</p><p></p><p>The community wants that broken magic and crazy monsters. Cutting the game down to 10-12 levels or nerfing all the magic to the ground are just the biggest copout solutions the community settles for. Mostly because "Give them what they want, and they will hate it." . The community wants levels 11-20. It has to accept the magic and brokenness, accept the QOL improvement of casters, then accept the required add one to complete the process. </p><p></p><p>It's the 4E mistake. We have to get the people what they want and make it work instead of removing it, painting over it, or shifting the problem somewhere else. The people want the possibility of fighting a "Darth Vader" or a Lich. No big bag of HP. But also no complex multistage maniacs DMs can't run. Maybe going back to old school magic immunity, teleportation and flight being assumed blast a certain level, and allowing force construct destruction.</p><p></p><p>I think the high level Vampire in 2025 is a step in the right direction as the Epic Rogue Enemy</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Minigiant, post: 9591591, member: 63508"] Fans want to see (and fight) the 11-20 content. I keep saying. D&D and D&D clones need to [B]grow up[/B] and [B]grow some[/B]. [LIST=1] [*]Define what the PC equivalent of an Archmage is for a [LIST=1] [*]Pure Martial Warrior [*]Pure Martial Skill monkey/Thief/Assassin [*]Half Magical Warrior [/LIST] [*]Define what the Monster equivalent of a Lich is for a [LIST=1] [*]Pure Martial Warrior [*]Pure Martial Skill monkey/Thief/Assassin [*]Half Magical Warrior [/LIST] [/LIST] Every other major Western fantasy IP that goes to Epics has done it. Warhammer. Star Wars. Warcraft. Greek myth. Norse Myth. The fanbase loves it's broken magic. So TSR, WOTC, and everyone else who wants the full fanbase has to PC warriors and Monster warriors who can wade through the broken magic and keep coming to have epic duels with each other. This is something [B]MMOs excelled[/B] at. All archetypes had PC and enemy variants. You could play a Mac level fighter or mage and fight a fighter or mage at the middle or end of the dungeon. Each class had a tactical purpose in the PC party AND a puzzle to solve as an enemy. The community wants that broken magic and crazy monsters. Cutting the game down to 10-12 levels or nerfing all the magic to the ground are just the biggest copout solutions the community settles for. Mostly because "Give them what they want, and they will hate it." . The community wants levels 11-20. It has to accept the magic and brokenness, accept the QOL improvement of casters, then accept the required add one to complete the process. It's the 4E mistake. We have to get the people what they want and make it work instead of removing it, painting over it, or shifting the problem somewhere else. The people want the possibility of fighting a "Darth Vader" or a Lich. No big bag of HP. But also no complex multistage maniacs DMs can't run. Maybe going back to old school magic immunity, teleportation and flight being assumed blast a certain level, and allowing force construct destruction. I think the high level Vampire in 2025 is a step in the right direction as the Epic Rogue Enemy [/QUOTE]
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