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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9594229" data-attributes="member: 7026594">I think the game should serve both populations, and the DM's guide should explicitly discuss both.It should talk about lower power, more earthbound games running &quot;just&quot; 1-10, or even less.&nbsp; And talk about how to run more powerful games with superhuman characters level 11+.&nbsp; And it should describe how both can be epic and awesome and satisfying.&nbsp; And their individual virtues.&nbsp; 10- games can be quicker, if you want, and fit more easily into a timeframe people can commit to.&nbsp; And higher level games can really dwell with the characters if you want, and give them crazier options for shenanigans.100% with all of that, although it's funny to see you describe that as &quot;the 4E mistake&quot;, when 4E was the edition which did the best job of making epic levels fun and runnable, and the one which made martials able to compete equally to casters.&nbsp; 4E got the closest of any edition to really nailing this design goal.I do agree that you don't want to entirely eliminate the high level crazy magic, and that in a couple of places 4E did go too far, like eliminating Wish from the core rules.Yup. MMOs bore me to tears.&nbsp; 4E was fun (although it could become broken and drag with too many off-turn actions).Mike's statements that 4E wanted to make combat more tactically interesting and puzzle-y, that it wanted to make DMing easier, and make &quot;what to do&quot; clearer for players, are uncontroversial and things it was good at.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9594229, member: 7026594"] I think the game should serve both populations, and the DM's guide should explicitly discuss both. It should talk about lower power, more earthbound games running "just" 1-10, or even less. And talk about how to run more powerful games with superhuman characters level 11+. And it should describe how both can be epic and awesome and satisfying. And their individual virtues. 10- games can be quicker, if you want, and fit more easily into a timeframe people can commit to. And higher level games can really dwell with the characters if you want, and give them crazier options for shenanigans. 100% with all of that, although it's funny to see you describe that as "the 4E mistake", when 4E was the edition which did the best job of making epic levels fun and runnable, and the one which made martials able to compete equally to casters. 4E got the closest of any edition to really nailing this design goal. I do agree that you don't want to entirely eliminate the high level crazy magic, and that in a couple of places 4E did go too far, like eliminating Wish from the core rules. Yup. MMOs bore me to tears. 4E was fun (although it could become broken and drag with too many off-turn actions). Mike's statements that 4E wanted to make combat more tactically interesting and puzzle-y, that it wanted to make DMing easier, and make "what to do" clearer for players, are uncontroversial and things it was good at. [/QUOTE]

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