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<blockquote data-quote="see" data-source="post: 9645747" data-attributes="member: 10531">Two caveats.First, this likely isn't true. Yes, I know it's what the ICv2 survey data said. The ICv2 survey data is, well, lousy. (It's the best the general public has, and so what we had to discuss, but it's lousy.) Statements from people (Chris Sims, Owen Stephens) in late '21-early '22, who were employed by Paizo back when and were later at WotC, were that internal sales data from both companies indicate D&amp;D was never actually outsold by Pathfinder. You can believe them or not on this, but I do.Second, when it was reported by ICv2, it was in a time period where WotC had stopped releasing new 4e product but Paizo was still releasing new Pathfinder product. So if it was true, the causal pattern was &quot;D&amp;D 4 didn't meet corporate goals, D&amp;D 4 was ended, then still-supported Pathfinder finally managed to outsell a discontinued version of D&amp;D while D&amp;D 5 was being developed&quot;.Except the timeline is &quot;D&amp;D 5 left Pathfinder in the dust in 2014-2015, then WotC brought back the OGL in 2016.&quot;After which D&amp;D 5 kept growing, defying all historical expectations. But since the pattern of sales with D&amp;D 3/3.x helped set those historical expectations, D&amp;D 5's defiance of them had to be rooted in something other than the 2016 release of the SRD under the OGL.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="see, post: 9645747, member: 10531"] Two caveats. First, this likely isn't true. Yes, I know it's what the ICv2 survey data said. The ICv2 survey data is, well, lousy. (It's the best the general public has, and so what we had to discuss, but it's lousy.) Statements from people (Chris Sims, Owen Stephens) in late '21-early '22, who were employed by Paizo back when and were later at WotC, were that internal sales data from both companies indicate D&D was never actually outsold by Pathfinder. You can believe them or not on this, but I do. Second, when it [I]was[/I] reported by ICv2, it was in a time period where WotC had stopped releasing new 4e product but Paizo was still releasing new Pathfinder product. So if it was true, the causal pattern was "D&D 4 didn't meet corporate goals, D&D 4 was ended, then still-supported Pathfinder finally managed to outsell a discontinued version of D&D while D&D 5 was being developed". Except the timeline is "D&D 5 left Pathfinder in the dust in 2014-2015, then WotC brought back the OGL in 2016." After which D&D 5 [I]kept growing[/I], defying all historical expectations. But since the pattern of sales with D&D 3/3.x helped set those historical expectations, D&D 5's defiance of them had to be rooted in something other than the 2016 release of the SRD under the OGL. [/QUOTE]

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