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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6940901" data-attributes="member: 6669384">I'd like to take a completely fresh approach to this.  Let's set aside everything I've written to date on the subject.What would the DC  for a Craft or Profession - Spinner skill check be to spin straw into gold, without magic?How much would a spinning wheel cost, above and beyond the "Master worked artisan's tool" price, for the wheel needed to spin straw into gold, without magic?Or, what would the DC of Strength and/or Con check be for a Human PC to flap their arms and fly away, without magic?You see when we discuss the cost or skill of a research DC to create an effect that can't happen in the game, we're essentially admitting that it can in fact happen, if those DCs are met and that price paid.When we debate how much the equipment and supplies cost for an effect that shouldn't be allowed to happen in game, we're essentially saying that the effect should be allowed to happen, if that price is met.This is why I keep saying that these details are meaningless.  You can't spin straw into gold in game without magic, no matter how pretty your spinning wheel is and no matter how skilled a spinner you are.A human PC can't fly by flapping their arms in D&D, no matter how hard they can flap or how long they can keep flapping.  Not without magic anyway.And a human PC should not be allowed to go outside the rules and create thermobaric bombs, large or small, without the use of magic.  (Note that even Alchemy requires the user to be a spell caster in order to make anything listed in the book.)So rather than continue to debate the size or shape of the area of effect, whether there should or shouldn't be a pressure wave/bull rush effect included, what kind of dust or flour you need, how much it weighs, how much it costs or how hard it should be to research, we can (and should) just say "no" from the start.  The effect is unbalancing, and there is no way that the rules allow for it.  Doesn't matter if a hit need be rolled or what the Save might be, doesn't matter if it is or isn't like a Fireball.  It is neither like nor unlike any spell, there is neither a hit needed nor not needed, there is no cost nor lack of cost.  The thing you seek doesn't exist within the rules.And if your character somehow witnessed a silo fire and/or explosion as a child?  Probably evil spirits, or a spell gone wrong.  Nothing to see here, move along, move along.</blockquote>

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