Dwarven Sourcebooks: Best source for society descriptions?

[Azgulor]

With multiple sourcebooks on demihumans out in the market today, which one offers the most detail on dwarven life, society, etc.? (Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves, Helm & Hammer, Quintessential Dwarf, and now Races of Stone.) All of the reviews that I've seen dwell primarily on the d20 crunch of feats, prestige classes, etc. which is of little value to me other than as a source of inspiration since I converted my D&D campaign over to GURPS 4e. My campaign is set in the Kingdoms of Kalamar and is primarily an all-dwarf game at this point. I've been able to gloss over the details on the PCs homeland as they are fighting a guerrila war in human lands, but eventually they'll make their way home.

I liked what I saw in Races of Stone, but I have no interest in incorporating the Goliaths (?) and just can't justify a $35 purchase for 5 or 6 pages of fluff material. Although I will say that the 5-6 pages on dwarven life and culture appeared to be better than the entire Complete Book of Dwarves from 2nd ed.

Specifically, I'm looking for detail on dwarven clanholds, what it means to live in a clan-oriented society, social classes, day-in-the-life type stuff, etc.

Thanks,

Azgulor

 

[Jeff Wilder]

My favorite book disucssing Dwarven society is Burok Torn. It's about the final major Dwarven stronghold -- well, good Dwarves -- in the Scarred Lands. This book was produced when SS&S Scarred Lands sourcebooks were at their peak of quality ... before they started putting out crap like Hornsaw.

Anyway, the book is obviously setting-specific in many ways, but Scarred Land Dwarves very much adhere to the typical D&D Dwarf type. The thing this book hammered (heh) home for me is how a Lawful Good society can be so bull-headed and blind that it can actually be an obstacle for Good PCs ... not to mention for other Good societies.

Just for example, in the Scarred Lands, decades ago during the Divine War, the Dwarves were allied with Dark Elves. Due to titanic treachery, the Dwarves actually betrayed the Dark Elves (and thus drove the Dark Elves to near extinction and evil). Anyway, the story the Dark Elves tell of those events is the true story, despite the fact that they're evil. The Dwarves really were the betrayers, and yet a century and a half later cannot admit it, even though they were manipulated. So the stories they tell are half-truths and lies, despite the fact that they are a Good people.

 

[Scribble]

Yeah when I clicked on this link I was ready to Say Burok Turn. Glad someone beat me too it! It's a really cool book, that I don't think would be too hard to use in another setting. Just change a few names around and a little of the history, and voila.

 

[Samothdm]

I only have Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves and Hammer & Helm so I can't comment on the other two.

I think both HoHF: Dwarves and H&H are great books, but they're primarily player's guides with new uses for skills, PrCs, feats, and equipment. Hammer & Helm does have a fun interesting section at the beginning that discusses how to adapt dwarves to different environments and makes suggestions on how altering the favored class of the dwarves also alters their outlook and society (such as changing the favored class to Paladin for a particular group or to barbarian for a different group). The info is interesting and does generate some good ideas but it's only about 2 pages.

I seem to recall that the old 2E Complete Dwarves Handbook had a bunch of that kind of info in there but you mentioned that you don't like that one, so I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for.

Edit: Typos

 

[Azgulor]

I only have Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves and Hammer & Helm so I can't comment on the other two.

I think both HoHF: Dwarves and H&H are great books, but they're primarily player's guides with new uses for skills, PrCs, feats, and equipment. Hammer & Helm does have a fun interesting section at the beginning that discusses how to adapt dwarves to different environments and makes suggestions on how altering the favored class of the dwarves also alters their outlook and society (such as changing the favored class to Paladin for a particular group or to barbarian for a different group). The info is interesting and does generate some good ideas but it's only about 2 pages.

I seem to recall that the old 2E Complete Dwarves Handbook had a bunch of that kind of info in there but you mentioned that you don't like that one, so I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for.

Edit: Typos

The Complete Book of Dwarves has the chapters I'm looking for, but the focus and content are lacking. For example, although there is an entire chapter on "Your Life as a Dwarf", Clans and Society rate 2 paragraphs. Wealth rates 7 paragraphs! Now I recognize that all of these are little building blocks, but I have yet to see a functional book that describes how the dwarven society functions. I need more than "dwarven society is structured along clan lines".

So far, the best dwarven culture source I've found is "Forge and Hammer - the Secret Life of Dwarves" from Dragon #278 by Wolfgang Baur. Basically, I'm looking for this kind of info. If CBoD is a 3, this article is a 7, and I'm looking for a sourcebook that cranks it to 10.

The Quinessential Dwarf apparently has a stronghold generator, so does the CBoD, so I'm not sure how they compare. The Quintessential Dwarf II is supposed to have a section/chapter on dwarven clans and random generator tables for creating dwarven societies. This sounds like it's more along the lines I'm looking for, but I haven't seen the book and haven't found any reviews.

I can run with what I have and flesh out the parts I need to. I was hoping that sourcebooks were being developed that focused less on PC-tweaking and/or munchkin-making and more on role-playing. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to suspect that they don't exist...

Thanks,

Azgulor

 

[Samothdm]

I can run with what I have and flesh out the parts I need to. I was hoping that sourcebooks were being developed that focused less on PC-tweaking and/or munchkin-making and more on role-playing. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to suspect that they don't exist...

I think part of the "problem" here is that, for the most part, if a DM isn't running in a published world setting (like FR or the Iron Kingdoms or whatever), he is going to want to make up most of that type of stuff by himself. A book of "generic" (meaning, non-world specific) fluff about dwarven society might be an interesting read, but I doubt it would be a huge seller and so probably wouldn't make sense from a financial perspective.

 

[Dark Jezter]

I've always been partial to the old 2e Complete Book of Dwarves. Good descriptions of dwarf society, culture, lifestyle, etc. Some of the rules in it are still usable to this date; such as the rules for randomly rolling up a dwarven stronghold.

Races of Stone is a good book about dwarves as well, but for some reason I prefer CBoD's portrayal of dwarves over RoS's.

 

[krichaiushii]

Once upon a time, Mayfair Games had a Role-Aids book about Dwarves.

Its content is more than murky, as its been years since I have seen a copy. IIRC, it contained both societal fluff, a city, and an adventure.

 

[Azgulor]

I think part of the "problem" here is that, for the most part, if a DM isn't running in a published world setting (like FR or the Iron Kingdoms or whatever), he is going to want to make up most of that type of stuff by himself. A book of "generic" (meaning, non-world specific) fluff about dwarven society might be an interesting read, but I doubt it would be a huge seller and so probably wouldn't make sense from a financial perspective.

I disagree. All of the "major" racial books on the market today are not setting specific (Burok Torn is the exception, not the rule here). If you're publishing a book about an "iconic" race, generalizations are not the issue. You can go all the way back to the <insert name of race> Point of View articles from the old Dragon mags to the more current issue I referenced in my earlier post.

I think the problem lies in that market expectation is that ANY d20 book will be rife with feats, prestige classes, and the other trappings of d20 RULES. There isn't anything intrinsicly wrong with that approach, it just shocks me that everyone follows the same damn formula. It's probably a riskier financial proposition, but hardly a 100% certainty for failure. For example, A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe is, as far as I can tell, a financial and critical success. It has rules in addition to flavor text/fluff, but the mechanics fill a void of information that the D&D rulebooks lack. If a similar model were applied to racial cultures I think they could become the definitive benchmark for racial books. Imagine:
Dwarven Culture/Society: The cultural, societal, and economic aspects of an underground society. With rules to support it, generate demographics and economics.
Elven Culture/Society: Reconciling the sylvan existence with extremely long lifespans and what is typically the oldest civilization of a fantasy world. Again, with rules to aid the weary DM in generating the finer points of the culture.
Orcs/Goblinoids Culture/Society: Could be applied to broader spectrum of tribal existence for other barbarians as well.

Even if I was running my campaign under some version of the d20 rules, I really have all the feats, pretige classes, sub races, and spells that I need. Scratch that, I have more than I'll ever need or could possibly use.

Ah well...

 

[Samothdm]

I see what you're saying. But, from a financial perspective, books with feats, new skills, and PrCs are usually (always?) going to sell better because they're designed for the players and there are more players than DMs.

A book about Dwarven (or any racial culture) is aimed mostly at DMs which is a much smaller piece of the overall gaming consumer pie. So, right there, you're taking a risk.

A book like A Magical Society: Ecology & Culture is a little more generic and applicable to a much greater audience of DMs and world builders than would be a book about the specifics of Dwarven culture.

And, maybe this is just speaking for the way that I built my campaign worlds over the years, but I don't want anyone else telling me how the Dwarven, Elven, etc. societies and cultures work. Sometimes those sections are fun to read, but I hardlly ever use them in my games. I don't care about a generic Dwarven pantheon. I have my own. I don't need to know how the Dwarven clan system is set up to operate underground and how they trade with other underground cultures, because the dwarves in my world don't live underground. And, I don't really care too much about reconciling the Elven longer lifespan with their culture because the elves in my world don't live for as long as traditional Tolkiensian or D&D elves. I like making up my own stuff for these types of questions. So, a book like MMS: Ecology & Culture is more helpful to me when making up these types of decisions because it helps me frame them in a little more realistic context. For the more fantastical stuff - I'll do that on my own.