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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 3014609" data-attributes="member: 22779">Actually, I had a 2e character riding a speeder bike from Return of the Jedi.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Buh?&nbsp; Monks and Knights?&nbsp; The complaints about monks are mostly mechanical if you look at TheLe's recent &quot;What's wrong with&quot; threads.&nbsp; The Knight has been given a pretty universal thumbs up except from a very small and vocal bunch.&nbsp; Gnomes have always sucked in any edition.Ah, there, now finally caught up on the threead. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Ok, look, Fantasy as a genre existed as a SUBSET of Science Fiction.&nbsp; People tend to forget how much the fantasy genre has grown in the past twenty years.&nbsp; Up to the sixties, NOT ONE fantasy novel appears on a Times Best Seller list.&nbsp; We're talking a miniscule genre.&nbsp; The only way most fantasy stories could get sold was to pass them off as SF.&nbsp; Andre Norton, Anne McCaffery both typify this pretty well.&nbsp; Jack Vance as well.&nbsp; Burroughs is pretty solidly SF and not fantasy, yet has a huge impact on the game.&nbsp; Tarzan and John Carter of Mars both figure largely in the game.&nbsp; D&amp;D in all its incarnations has always been a pastiche.&nbsp; It's drawn from a multitude of sources - myth, fantasy, SF, and just made up crap.&nbsp; Trying to argue that one source is somehow better than another is ridiculous.&nbsp; Mind Flayers belong solidly in SF - an alien race of mind controlling aliens with tentacles.&nbsp; Come on, Lovecraft anyone?&nbsp; Should we now bar Mind Flayers from the game because it doesn't draw on &quot;real&quot; fantasy?The rust monster was a plastic toy from China.&nbsp; Looked like a &quot;lobster with a propeller on its tail&quot; (EGG's exact words)&nbsp; This has absolutely no fantasy base whatsoever.&nbsp; A bug that eats metal?&nbsp; Didn't Star Trek have this critter at one point?&nbsp; Melts through stone, something like that?&nbsp; Sahugin as &quot;The Creature from the Black Lagoon&quot;.&nbsp; I mean, the picture in the 1e MM looks pretty much exactly like that.&nbsp; That's horror genre, not fantasy.&nbsp; Should we remove that as well.If you went through the books and removed every element that wasn't purely fantasy genre, you'd have about a fifteen page book.&nbsp; So much of the game has drawn on so many sources, that trying to parse them out is silly.&nbsp; Don't like intelligent constructs as a PC race?&nbsp; Fine, that's groovy.&nbsp; Don't use them.&nbsp; But don't complain when other people use them and try to take some sort of superior stance that you are using &quot;pure fantasy&quot; rather than some &quot;dirty diluted fantasy&quot; that others use.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 3014609, member: 22779"] Actually, I had a 2e character riding a speeder bike from Return of the Jedi. :) Buh? Monks and Knights? The complaints about monks are mostly mechanical if you look at TheLe's recent "What's wrong with" threads. The Knight has been given a pretty universal thumbs up except from a very small and vocal bunch. Gnomes have always sucked in any edition. Ah, there, now finally caught up on the threead. :) Ok, look, Fantasy as a genre existed as a SUBSET of Science Fiction. People tend to forget how much the fantasy genre has grown in the past twenty years. Up to the sixties, NOT ONE fantasy novel appears on a Times Best Seller list. We're talking a miniscule genre. The only way most fantasy stories could get sold was to pass them off as SF. Andre Norton, Anne McCaffery both typify this pretty well. Jack Vance as well. Burroughs is pretty solidly SF and not fantasy, yet has a huge impact on the game. Tarzan and John Carter of Mars both figure largely in the game. D&D in all its incarnations has always been a pastiche. It's drawn from a multitude of sources - myth, fantasy, SF, and just made up crap. Trying to argue that one source is somehow better than another is ridiculous. Mind Flayers belong solidly in SF - an alien race of mind controlling aliens with tentacles. Come on, Lovecraft anyone? Should we now bar Mind Flayers from the game because it doesn't draw on "real" fantasy? The rust monster was a plastic toy from China. Looked like a "lobster with a propeller on its tail" (EGG's exact words) This has absolutely no fantasy base whatsoever. A bug that eats metal? Didn't Star Trek have this critter at one point? Melts through stone, something like that? Sahugin as "The Creature from the Black Lagoon". I mean, the picture in the 1e MM looks pretty much exactly like that. That's horror genre, not fantasy. Should we remove that as well. If you went through the books and removed every element that wasn't purely fantasy genre, you'd have about a fifteen page book. So much of the game has drawn on so many sources, that trying to parse them out is silly. Don't like intelligent constructs as a PC race? Fine, that's groovy. Don't use them. But don't complain when other people use them and try to take some sort of superior stance that you are using "pure fantasy" rather than some "dirty diluted fantasy" that others use. [/QUOTE]

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