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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 1472653" data-attributes="member: 4303">The basic assumption is that all fell. This is treading on dangerous ground, however - I'm generally disinclined to make stark metaphysical assertions like this from a metagame perspective. It might be true for an Oronthonian, but there is overlap with other belief systems as well, and they hold different ideas. What is true in the campaign world today, may not have been five thousand years ago - before the Church of Oronthon came to prominence, or before the name of 'Oronthon' was even heard. I believe this is intimated in one of the exchanges between Eadric and Titivilus - that Oronthon has somehow changed (and continues to change) what transpired in the past. This itself might be true from Eadric's point of view, but isn't necessarily true from Nwm's or Mostin's, of course. Not all truths are unequal, and all that.I think, for practical purposes, we're talking in terms of relative infinities. But ultimately, a rational inquiry such as this is doomed to fail - reason is incapable of penetrating cosmic mysteries. From a meta-game viewpoint, it was precisely this kind of unanswerable question which led to the in-game importance of mysticism and the dialectical process.Now I think that you are metagaming - you need to reverse your perspective. If I want to describe a succubus who is 'exceptionally eloquent, sneaky, and quick' I might give her 10 rogue levels. This is not to say that she has advanced to a 10th level rogue in any conventional sense - merely that she is exceptionally eloquent, sneaky and quick, and giving her 10 levels of rogue is the best way to represent this mechanically. In the same vein, Eadric is not half-celestial - he merely exhibits powers for which the half-celestial template is a convenient (and, apparently ECL-balanced) device.BUT (and this is important) there is an implicit assumption that demons and devils can advance (don't think in terms of HD or level, think simply in terms of power). In this regard, they differ from celestials (who were created thus, and no other way). Perhaps this is a result of their 'free will' - which comes at a price, obviously. The Fall is an archetypal event which is grounded in struggling against impossible odds, the assertion of will and ego etc.</blockquote>

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