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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 4869133" data-attributes="member: 48965">Well Ari I'll be the dissenting voice and say I think you're right.&nbsp; I lost a player when I decided to try out 4e.&nbsp; Now in 3.5 he always and I mean literally always played a half-orc barbarian or fighter.&nbsp; He was what I would definitely consider a casual player... didn't read the books between games, or plan out builds, but just wanted a simple character to have fun with friends, roll some dice and kill monsters with, all with a minimal expenditure of complication.&nbsp; He did a little roleplaying, always made us laugh and was in general a fun guy to game with. &nbsp;When we play tested 4e, I gave him a pre-made Dwarf-Fighter and he ended up quitting the group.&nbsp; Seriously after one game session.&nbsp; I mean choosing whether it's the right time to use a daily or an encounter or an at-will... and if it's an at-will what at-will and who should he mark, and what positioning as a &quot;defender&quot; should he take, and how to manipulate terrain in the best way... well let's just say after a hard week of work I don't think he wanted this much complexity in what had originally been a pretty easy character to play.Now I know many people don't understand why someone would like less options, but for some gamers the investment in learning what all of these options do as well as how and when best to use them not to mention the multi-layered decision making process of choosing them, etc. just isn't worth the reward.&nbsp; I think of it as akin to checkers and chess... in earlier editions one could play either one depending on choice of class and still have a good time with friends.&nbsp; Now however, it feels like chess is the only option, and just like in the real world it's not everyone's cup of tea for fun.&nbsp; Honestly, in the end it's imaginary warriors killing imaginary monsters, and how complex you want that to be is all subjective.Note: for those who claim... if you aren't willing to put in the work, or don't enjoy the complexity you shouldn't be playing...let's just remember that before (in all previous editions) you had the choice to engage elevated complexity or not... now for the first time there isn't a choice.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 4869133, member: 48965"] Well Ari I'll be the dissenting voice and say I think you're right. I lost a player when I decided to try out 4e. Now in 3.5 he always and I mean literally always played a half-orc barbarian or fighter. He was what I would definitely consider a casual player... didn't read the books between games, or plan out builds, but just wanted a simple character to have fun with friends, roll some dice and kill monsters with, all with a minimal expenditure of complication. He did a little roleplaying, always made us laugh and was in general a fun guy to game with. When we play tested 4e, I gave him a pre-made Dwarf-Fighter and he ended up quitting the group. Seriously after one game session. I mean choosing whether it's the right time to use a daily or an encounter or an at-will... and if it's an at-will what at-will and who should he mark, and what positioning as a "defender" should he take, and how to manipulate terrain in the best way... well let's just say after a hard week of work I don't think he wanted this much complexity in what had originally been a pretty easy character to play. Now I know many people don't understand why someone would like less options, but for some gamers the investment in learning what all of these options do as well as how and when best to use them not to mention the multi-layered decision making process of choosing them, etc. just isn't worth the reward. I think of it as akin to checkers and chess... in earlier editions one could play either one depending on choice of class and still have a good time with friends. Now however, it feels like chess is the only option, and just like in the real world it's not everyone's cup of tea for fun. Honestly, in the end it's imaginary warriors killing imaginary monsters, and how complex you want that to be is all subjective. Note: for those who claim... if you aren't willing to put in the work, or don't enjoy the complexity you shouldn't be playing...let's just remember that before (in all previous editions) you had the choice to engage elevated complexity or not... now for the first time there isn't a choice. [/QUOTE]

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