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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kahuna Burger" data-source="post: 1471533" data-attributes="member: 8439">you are talking in circles. if it hits automaticly, there is no roll. To say that I am forgoing a roll for convience is just, well, silly. Theres no "forgoing" to be gone, a roll is not required therefore one isn't made. You can argue (as others have) that the bonus to damage can apply even if there are no rolls to hit made, and I'd still disagree, but at least the argument would make sense. the last part is a proposed houserule. A cgd hits automaticly, not "on anything but a natural one". There is not even that chance of failure. rolls are made to adjucate random chance. If thereis no random chance involved (such as a cdg) there is no need to roll. Your argument about the skill checks doesn't apply since optional rules on rolling a one make them inaplicable. On the other hand, when I am doing something that the rules say does not require a check or automaticly succeeds (such as staying on a sedate horse or resisting a spell which requires a willing target) there is no roll to make, just as in a cdg.This is a sureal little tangent,so I'll just comment that unconditionally  dismissing this subargument (as I do) should not be seen as a claim of absolute fact on the larger question - I'd acceed to another dm in her game on the PA+cdg question, and already stated my interpretation for the record.Kahuna Burger</blockquote>