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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FatherTome" data-source="post: 4055097" data-attributes="member: 50815">Yes, you add the bonuses from Weretouched Master to the bonuses you normally get from Shifting, except when using the Alternate Form ability at 5th level.If you've got a specific character in mind, would you mind elaborating on it? Weretouched Master was very heavily revised (read: nerfed) and, if possible, you need to talk to your DM about adjusting it to fit the needs of the campaign (up to and including the original version).Let me give you an example:In a campaign that our group is currently taking a break from, I'm playing a Shifter Barbarian/Warshaper/Weretouched Master/Bear Warrior (only 7 of 10 levels).Yes, that's a lot of prestige classes.I was initially unaware of the errata related to the Weretouched master, and felt that Weretouched Master would be an interesting complement to the Bear Warrior, as WM provides an identical bonus to the BW's "bearform rage" but allows the option of a lycanthrope hybrid form and uses shifts, rather than rages.After some discussion with my DM, before the campaign started, I found the errata and pointed it out and we agreed that the revised errata would probably be more balanced. In hindsight, this actually caused a much greater balance problem in the long run as I could potentially stack the Bear Warrior's bearform rage STR bonus (+16), the Weretouched Master's shift STR bonus (+8, +1 size natural claw attack), and the Warshaper's str bonus for being in a different form (+4), totalling +28 to my STR. Throw on an Animal Growth, and that strength goes up by an additional +8, and this character had the potential to become a grappling nightmare.I had planned, at one point, to take improved unarmed strike, improved grapple, multigrab, and improved multigrab and just go around grappling the FISHSTICKS out of everything, but when I realized that at 20th level I had a grapple modifier of +67(+17 BAB, +31 STR mod, +4 improved grapple, +8 size mod, +7 item from the Magic Item Compendium whose name I forgot)...I went and looked at a Pit Fiend. CR 20, Large Outsider, Grapple mod +35. To find a monster that can grapple on an equivalent level, you need a Wyrm Silver Dragon (CR 24), an Ancient Gold Dragon (CR 24), a Wyrm Red Dragon (CR 24), etc.Only the Tarrasque beats that grapple check on a CR-appropriate level. Well, that and freedom of movement.If we had continued to use the original Weretouched Master, all else being equal, that grapple mod would have gone up by +4 and all of those dragons would need to be advanced an age category to remain competetive. Tarrasque still beat it, though.While making this build, I did a lot of deep thinking, and came to some conclusions:Grapple is a mechanic designed to be used by monsters on PCs, or by PCs on limited NPCs. Optimizing for grapple generates a shadow version of D&D where you have two types of combat encounters: Enemies who have freedom of movement, or enemies which are held down and mercilessly pummeled the moment they are within a (huge-sized ridiculously high jump check, also has fly if needed) creature's reach. When 99% of the monsters in the game won't make the grapple check if they roll a 20 and you roll a 1 (there is no auto-fail on grapple), there ceases to be anything meaningfully exciting about combats where it's relevant, and a single 5th level spell renders your entire build useless, with no middle ground.Abilities such as Improved Grab and (Improved) Multigrab exist to combat the action drought that monsters face versus PCs. Our group had six players. Our DM eventually ruled against the Spell Compendium spell Ray of Diziness and had our sorcerer choose a different spell, simply because it make single large monster encounters a joke.What does this really mean?Weretouched Master is a great flavor prestige class. If you merge the original and the errata'ed versions of the prestige class, you end up with a more interesting (in my opinion) and better balanced version of the prestige class.Why is this necessary? Well, quite frankly, the basic alternate forms suck. A lot.So, here's my suggestion: Add in Weretouched III at 5th level as normal. Scrap the errata replacement of Alternate Form, and go with the original 5th level Weretouched Master Alternate Form ability, which applies a modifier to the shifter's base stats based on the basic lycanthrope template, and allows the use of a hybrid form - at the cost of two shifts (originally one shift). Do not allow regular shifting and Alternate Form at the same time.Why is this more balanced? A couple reasons: First, as Weretouched Master is a zero casting progression class, it is mostly going to be taken by fighter-types. Equipment is rendered non-functional, so the only thing the WM has going for him is what he can do with skills and stats and what his classes give him, unless someone casts spells on him.This means that even in hybrid form, his armor and weapons are gone for the duration, and if his hybrid form changes his size, even if he drops a weapon before he shifts and picks it up, it's no longer suited for his size and he suffers an attack penalty when using it. At best he's spending a move action to be armed.Second, you're severely limited in the number of times per day you can enter the hybrid form. According to RAW, the max shifts/day you can have before epic levels is 5, which includes the two bonus feats you get from entering Weretouched Master and requires that you spend 6 of your 7 possible feats on Shifter feats. So even if you take nothing but Shifter feats, you're not doing it more than twice per day (at 2 shifts/use).The errata alternate form ability sucks. The original class ability was just fine - only character optimization 'breaks' it, and it's nowhere near as bad as what a CoD can do. - Tome</blockquote>

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