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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Qualidar" data-source="post: 4901211" data-attributes="member: 13388">So, I've been diving into the races over here, trying to get a feel for the default power level by assigning values to the individual abilities: +.25 for a rarely useful or flavor ability, +1 for an ability equivalent to a feat, etc. Note I don't have the Eberron book with me, so I'm just pulling stuff off the web for the Eberron races, and I might have some stuff wrong about them.According to my arbitrary point system, the Pathfinder races and Eberron races have the following value:Dwarves: +8Elves: +7Gnomes: +7.5Half-elves: 7.25Half-orcs: +4.25Halflings: + 7.75Humans: +4-------Changeling: +5.25Shifter: +4.5Warforged: +1.75You can take a look at my crazy point system here:[sblock]BREAKDOWNDwarves+2 Con / +2 Wis / -2 Chr;  +2 net  (+2)Darkvision 60 ft. (+1)+2 Appraise (+.25)+2 against poisons, spells, and spell-like abilities (+2)Defensive Training: +4 AC vs giant type (+.5)Hatred: +1 attacks vs orc and goblinoids (might have to change that, given the setting) (+.5)Stability: +2 CMB vs bull rush or trip attempts  (+.5)Battleaxes, Heavy Picks, Warhammers  (+.25)Steady: 20 ft movement, but no encumbrance or armor penalty  (0)Stonecunning: +2 perception checks to notice unusual stonework features, check within 10 ft  (+1)TOTAL: +8Elves+2 Dex / +2 Int / -2 Con; +2 net  (+2)Low-light vision  (+1)+2 Spellcraft to identify magic items  (+.5)+2 Perception checks  (+1)Immune to magic sleep effects, +2 vs enchantment spells and effects  (+1)Longbows, Longswords, Rapiers, Shortbows, "elven" weapons  (+.5)+2 Spell penetration checks  (+1)TOTAL: +7Gnomes+2 Con / +2 Chr / -2 Str; +2 net  (+2)Low-light vision  (+1)+2 Stealth (Small)  (+1)+2 Perception checks  (+1)+2 craft or profession skill of their choice  (+.25)+2 vs illusion  (+.5)+1 AC, +1 attack (Small)  (+2)-1 CMB, -1 CMD (Small)  (-1)Small weapons do less damage (-1)Defensive Training: +4 AC vs giant type  (+.5)Hatred: +1 attacks vs orc and goblinoids (might have to change that, given the setting)  (+.5)"gnome" weapons  (+.25)Slow: 20 ft.  (-1)Gnome magic:     +1 save DC vs their illusions  (+1)    1/day: dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, speak with animals  (+.5)TOTAL: +7.5Half-elves+2 ability score of their choice  (+2)Low-light vision  (+1)Skill focus bonus feat; +3 to chosen skill (+6 after 10 ranks)  (+1)+2 Perception checks  (+1)Immune to magic sleep effects, +2 vs enchantment spells and effects (+1)Elven blood: count as both elves and humans for effects related to race  (+.25)Multitalented: 2 favored classes  (+1)TOTAL: 7.25Half-orcs+2 ability score of their choice  (+2)Darkvision 60 ft.  (+1)+2 Intimidate  (+.5)Greataxes, Falchions, "orcish" weapons  (+.25)Orc blood: count as both orcs and humans for effects related to race  (+.25)Orc ferocity: Can fight for round at negative hit points as if disabled  (+.25)TOTAL: +4.25Halflings+2 Dex / _2 Chr / -2 Str; +2 net  (+2)Low-light vision  (+1)+2 Stealth (Small)  (+1)+2 Perception checks  (+1)+2 Acrobatics and Climb  (+1)+2 vs fear effects  (+.5)+1 all saving throws  (+2)+1 AC, +1 attack (Small)  (+2)-1 CMB, -1 CMD (Small)  (-1)Small weapons do less damage (-1)"halfling" weapons  (+.25)Slow: 20 ft. (-1)TOTAL: + 7.75Humans+2 ability score of their choice  (+2)Normal vision  (0)+1 skill rank per level  (+1)Bonus feat of their choice  (+1)TOTAL: +4------------------------------------------------------Changeling+2 Dex / -2 Int / -2 Chr; -2 net  (-2)Normal vision  (0)+2 Bluff. Intimidate and Sense Motive  (+1.5)Linguistics (formerly Speak Language) is a class skill  (+.25)Minor Shape Change: +10 disguise  (+3)+2 vs sleep and charm  (+.5)TOTAL: +5.25ShifterNo stat adjustment  (0)Low-light vision  (+1)+2 Athletics and Climb (formerly Balance, Climb and Jump)  (+.5)Shifting: +2 bonus to physical stat and associated effect, lasting (3 + Con) rounds / day. (3)TOTAL: +4.5Warforged+2 Con / -2 Wis / -2 Chr; -2 net  (-2)Normal vision  (0)Immune to poison, sleep effects, paralyzation, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, the sickened condition, and energy drain  (+3)+2 armor from Composite Plating (5% arcane spell failure chance, can be enchanted)  (1)Light fortification: 25%  (1)Slam attack (1d4 dmg)  (1)Cannot heal naturally  (-.25)Healing magic only cures 1/2 damage  (-1)Subject to some spells and effects that cause objects damage (-.25)Disabled at 0 hp, inert at -10 (-.25)Cannot be raised or resurrected (-.5)Does not need to eat, sleep or breathe (0 - accounted for above)Unable to wear armor or robe slot items  (-1)TOTAL: 1.75[/sblock]By my system, it looks like the Changelings need another 2 points, and the Shifter another 3.I think for Changelings it's as easy as dropping the Int penalty. Alternatly, Remalthilis' +2 any score ability mod works as well. Am I wrong that the current 3.5 adjustment is +2 Dex / -2 Int / -2 Chr?For Shifters, once again I like Remalthilis' I like +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, for a total of +2. They still need a point from somewhere, and I'd rather it wasn't from the stats. Any thoughts? I'm thinking a +1 Fort save.I'm surprised at where I ended up for the Warforged. The way I'm ranking them they clearly are underpowered, but I know the opposite opinion is very common. Need to come back to them.</blockquote>

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