[Eberron] Miracle vs. Mournlands

[Wolfwood2]

I would also say it it could mitigate part of the Mournland's problem (infuriating a lot of creatures who like the status quo in the process.)

It's a cool idea. But I go with "what would be most fun for the campaign?", and fixing the whole country with one spell isn't it. Fixing the problem should be an epic, heroic task.

But it isn't like they just had a cleric prepare the spell and cast it.

In fact, calling this effect a 'Miracle' is just a rough description. It's effectively an Eldritch Machine effect, not necessarily controlled by the limitations of an actual Miracle spell. Ascending the throne of the true king sounds like it was a pretty epic, heroic task in itself.

 

[Quartz]

I'm not asking if they can do it, nor am I asking if it's permissible by the spell. This player pretty much resolved every goal his character had, and deserves to have this be his awesome ending...

If it is to be an ending for the character, how about making him the King of Cyre? By word and by deed he's more than proved himself. Now he's the King, he can't go adventuring (but see the Aphonion Tales Story Hour), so the player can develop a new character. And of course, the new King will have lots of problems that require expert troubleshooters...

 

[Nifft]

But it isn't like they just had a cleric prepare the spell and cast it.

In fact, calling this effect a 'Miracle' is just a rough description. It's effectively an Eldritch Machine effect, not necessarily controlled by the limitations of an actual Miracle spell. Ascending the throne of the true king sounds like it was a pretty epic, heroic task in itself.

Word up.

This sounds like an epic climactic event if ever an event were climactically epic.

- - -

More potential trouble, and resolutions for that trouble, building on the "heaven is empty" scenario described above.

-> Throne of Cyre accepts PC. He is the (new) rightful King. As King, he gets to clear out all the constructs and undead who have been plotting in the area formerly known as the Mournlands. Also, fiends and aberrations run rampant since there are no more Archons to keep them down. Yay!

-> Once the land is clear, the Five Nations march in -- while the PCs were adventuring, the nations were raising armies. Each nation has its own claimant to the throne of Cyre. Some are mere puppets, others are (former) rightful heirs. War erupts: the PCs are politicians, generals and super-weapons. Oh, and each nation has far greater access to fiends and aberrations (thanks to the lack of Archons). Alter the summon monster spells so they can summon more powerful fiends for their level; alter then planar binding and planar ally spells so their HD limit is +4 higher when calling fiends.

- - -

One Possible (really final) Resolution: the PCs, whose power by now rivals that of a demi-god, are given a chance to ascend into Solars, taking the places of some Celestials who surrendered their souls to restore the Mournlands. Heaven is back in business, the PCs are out of the way for future campaigns (but ALWAYS visible), and the demonic plague is over. Hopefully they've put a good man on the throne of Cyre and settled relations between the Five (Six?) Nations.

Cheers, -- N

 

[clark411]

The "soul" line of explanation is an interesting one that, although I haven't suggested in my campaign yet, would certainly chime with some of the flavor I email my group between sessions. In our campaign, the players have established that people can planeshift to the Realm of the Dead, find the souls of people, and pull them out of the queue. They did this once, and it caused souls to flood back into Eberron as they all "stepped back" in the queue when the PC shoved his way down the line. As I've mentioned before, our PCs are QUITE familiar with Maruts!

The whole idea of this place and the ramifications of it boggles me, so connecting it in any way to the Cataclysm would be interesting.

Also of interest would be how a planar force would build up Cyre-- if a kingdom were wrought from the hands of angels, rather than mortals, what are some specific ways it would deviate from the grays of the setting? Would the angels hold this region in trust until it was given to the people of Cyre?


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Tossing the flavor in for giggles, since it's too fun to see how it parallels with Nifft's 'soul debt' ideas. Dated 6/15/07

Lecture Transcript Excerpt


"'The planes are an expression of the will of souls’ has been a fundamental philosophical belief that, although argued against vehemently in the ideological crusades of the better half of the fourteenth millennium, remains the most plausible explanation of this experience that we can collectively call ‘existence.’ Those of you who have attended conferences of this nature before are sure to understand that people in my profession do not use the words ‘existence,’ ‘experience,’ ‘philosophy,’ or ‘plausible’ lightly.


[Speaker pauses for laughter]


“We must acknowledge some of the more frightening conjecture that has arrived by this theory. If the planes are an expression of our souls, then the multiplanar community of souls is a truly frightening entity. Worse still, it is an entity that is not controlled by us in any clearly measurable way. The divine milieu can manipulate the energy of this soul stuff, but some believe that gods play a mostly parasitic part in absorbing only the byproduct of whatever reflection of the Prime Material Plane that they hold dominion over.


“As the pamphlets you hopefully hold state, and if you don’t, they are located on the tables by the entrance, this lecture is devoted partially to proving the existence of this soul entity, the ramifications of the existence of this entity, and to pinpointing anomalies within the planes that could serve to debunk my claims. Perhaps it is the academic in me, running across the fields of my old campus, tomes tumbling out of my haversack, that compels me to put my worst foot forward first.” [speaker continues through laughter] “I shall begin with the anomaly of the plane referred to as Eberron.


“Eberron is a unique reflection of the Prime Material Plane, if for no other reason than that it adds almost nothing to this soul entity. This first slide shows its current location in relation to us, right now. Now, with this second slide we see its geography. For those of you who are familiar with transplanar history, you’ll find some interesting patterns there in regards to those crystalline formations in the polar region of the planet. That’s right, while doing research for this presentation I stumbled across evidence that *they* appeared even in Eberron. I’ll be happy to speak later about how Eberron fared.


“Now, back to the topic at hand. Eberron is unique because very few souls ever join the soul entity. While there is a plane to which the souls of the dead travel, it appears to be dysfunctional. The souls of Eberron, strangely, only return through divine magic that is willed up by the mortals on the plane. Beyond this, the majority of the souls remain here, forever waiting for judgment, reward, punishment, motion.


“What is also strange is the question of where the souls of those born on Eberron come from. The general consensus of academia is that there is a zero-sum equation for the number of souls flitting about through the planes. Souls cannot be truly created, nor destroyed, by any means—but here, they are coming from somewhere that has yet to be accounted for. [A few hands raise in the audience] I will provide the tonal schematics for access to this plane, and the location of the portal, at the conclusion of this lecture. [The hands go down]


“Also, until just recently, this plane had not followed the cyclical pattern of so many other planes in regards to its ‘ages.’ Typically we see a formative age, wherein the gods trundle along upon the world, newly formed and either looking for fun or a fight, followed by the influx of a large quantity of souls which are shaped into the templates we’re all familiar with for the mortal races, and then finally a few ages of mortals, heroes, kings, dragons, demons, and perhaps mortals or heroes again, repeating as civilizations rise, crest, decline, and fall.


“Eberron’s history consists of an Age of Demons that lasted nearly a million years, followed by an Age of Giants, and then Monsters, and up until very recently, Mortals. Each of these ages is shorter than the one before it, and the sense of the place as a whole seemed to be that history was speeding up, tribulations arising constantly, bringing their civilization to the breaking point which would herald catastrophe. Ultimately, the Age of Mortals ended without the mortals knowing it—around the first millennium of the central continent of Khorvaire began a new age, one of Heroes.


“It was in this Age that my research truly came into question. This next slide, shows the continent of Khorvaire, and highlighted, is the nation of Breland. If by this point, you’ve decided that the jink you’ve paid for this lecture wasn’t worth taking out a notebook, perhaps this next slide will change your mind.”


[A number of exclamations rise from the audience]



Speaker:

Adirhim Lotirmon

Professor of Planar Deviation

College of Truth, Lady’s Ward, Sigil

Maybe it was this moment of change that the slide's evidencing? Heh, thanks players!

 

[Nyeshet]

The character prays that the Mournlands be cleansed and that it be made inhabitable for the people of Cyre.


I described a ribbon forming in the air above the throne, and an angelic choir racing forth, singing as they spiraled around the ancient castle, before making off to the Mournlands to do who knows what.

Personally, I would state that he made two wishes. The angels appeared shortly after his first wish and left to fulfill it. That he kept speaking beyond the first wish was immaterial to them. As such, the angels, by whatever means, are cleansing the Mournlands. As for how . . .

A while back I read an interesting story. A man made a deal with a demon / spirit / genie / whatever to make water from the sea next to his home drinkable. And so the spirit / fiend / whatever - for centuries to come - removed salt from the water, leaving it next to the sea. The end result is that after a few years the water nearer the shore where the man lived was indeed drinkable, but much of the land was covered in salt and thus desolate (as nothing would grow on the nacient salt flat). The man tried to end the deal, but the fiend refused, for no conditions had been placed for ending it prior to the completion of the agreement. Centuries passed, and eventually the entire sea was fresh water - and a vast salt flat existed in the dead lands where once many kingdoms had existed, including the town where the man had once lived.


So, the "angels" are living spells of the Miracle / Wish variety that are constantly cleansing the mournland, placing the pollution elsewhere - perhaps all in a single location that becomes increasingly more inhospitable, dangerous, horrific, etc until nothing can survive there due to the sheer concentration of malign-ness. After a few years the various effects that make the Mournlands in need of cleansing are in effect mostly gone. The land is not yet quite habitable, but it seems the long period in which it cannot be readily settled is nearly at an end. After another few years the situation is viable enough that some are taking the chance of trying to settle within it. Life is hard but livable, and the lands around the Mournlands begin their campaigns to claim pieces (if not all of it) for themselves. They've had a few years to build up their forces, do reconaissance, etc as the conditions become better.

And while all this is occurring, a "new" mournlands has appeared next door that is far smaller and far worse. Perhaps the undead and constructs can still survive there - barely, and so they move to this new land, for a time.



So, in the immediate future, if the PCs return to the mournlands they will find them slightly better than before, but not significantly so - yet. Perhaps they can find / flag down one of the wandering Miracle living-spells and ask it what is going on - and discover that only the cleansing is occurring, and that is taking a long time due to the vastness of the lands in need of cleansing. The PCs will have a few years to wait before the "miracle" has fully occurred, and the results may not be as nice as what the wisher expected (ie: lands going to war over the newly cleansed mournlands, a new mournlands - more concentrated / terrible - forming next door to the former mournlands, etc).


That is how I would rule it.

 

[Piratecat]

In fact, calling this effect a 'Miracle' is just a rough description. It's effectively an Eldritch Machine effect, not necessarily controlled by the limitations of an actual Miracle spell. Ascending the throne of the true king sounds like it was a pretty epic, heroic task in itself.

Wait, you want me to actually READ THE THREAD instead of skimming it...?

Heh. Sorry about that. I'd say fix the Mournlands, and then revel in all the chaos this brings about. I love the idea.

 

[Tiberius]

Being one of the players, I'll be interested to see the responses. I just wish I had paid more attention when the barrier around the throne was described; I missed when it was mentioned to have scintillating colors, and it would have been worth walking through just to have this exchange:

"Make a Reflex save. "
"Immune, fire veil. "
"Make a Reflex save."
"Immune, acid veil."
"Make a Reflex save."
"Immune, lich."
"Make a Fortitude save."
"Immune, lich."
"Another Fortitude save."
"Immune, lich."
"Will save. "
"Immune, class feature. Also, lich."
"Will save! "
"Immune, Dimensional Anchor. "

Anyway, for my part, I'm liking the ideas that involve less "Bam! Cyre's back, baby!" and more "Well, the circumstances of the area that make it really unsuited to human habitation are made to vanish, but that just opens up a wilderness area for recolonization (and a potential war over the territory)." There seem to be more story ideas there, and it ties in better with the upcoming war issue in the game. Also, it has the side benefit of not rendering totally useless any future information to come out about the region.

On the whole, I'm not terribly sympathetic to the idea of PCs being able to affect such grand change in games like D&D. In games like Exalted, where world-shaking is in the PCs job description and the game is set up that way, sure. But I see D&D characters as being more footnotes in the history of the world. Set up a duchy? Marry into the royal line? Kill the local uberlich? Traipse about the planes? No problem. But I, personally, draw the line at effects that rewrite the campaign setting in a substantial way. Perhaps this is a reaction to playing the the metaplot-heavy White Wolf games for years and not wanting to do anything to invalidate future books or just the fact that I all but have the [Lawful] subtype. Whatever the reason, I see the game world as being bigger than any given individual or group at the table, and prefer games that end up in much the same place as they started, with the characters perhaps setting themselves up to be well-off and the instigators of the quests for the next generation of adventurers. You can polish the dung heap, but you can't shovel it out and build something new in its place. Doubly so when (note: rework and insert mechanical complaint before posting)

To add something of actual substance, I was going to suggest that the request be worded fairly literally; given that the nation of Cyre hasn't existed for years, there are no "people of Cyre" to whom to tailor the habitability of the land. As such, the spell decides that the people currently inhabiting the land are good enough, and tailors the place to better suit the warforged, thus strengthening the Lord of Blades and his subjects. However, since the character is being retired as a result of this, it would be somewhat unseemly to say "Gotcha!". As such, an interesting result might be to revert the land to the way it was immediately before the Day of Mouning; including legions from multiple nations who don't know that the war is no longer going on, whatever terrible war machines that were in use at the time, and the restoration of a fully-functional creation forge that had been secreted away in the Cannith outpost Eston...

 

[Mokona]

Lesser angels open a portal into the Mournland and "go to war" with the monsters there.

Demons and Devils follow the angels there and the war between Good and Evil is now fought blatantly on Eberron as well as the planes.

The Angels ultimately free Cyre in 50 years or so. And the war of heaven moves back into the shadows.