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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mmu1" data-source="post: 1581559" data-attributes="member: 319">Actually, for a +6 ECL that's still pretty awful. And considering that their LA is 3, and what (for example) Half-Celestials get for a LA of 4 (something like +18 to stats, +1 NA, damage resistance, elemental resistances, save bonuses, Spell Resistance, flight with Good maneuverability and spell-like abilities) their racial abilities aren't impressive at all. The big problem with ECLs is that they're supposed to include hit dice, which is usually (aside from creatures like outsiders, who get a decent HD size, all good saves and a good BAB) the biggest rip-off in history. Take ECL 3 lizardmen - their LA is only +1, but WotC thinks two levels of "monstrous humanoid" with a d8 hit die, (IIRC) good Reflex saves, Cleric BAB and a skill list worse than a fighter's (which completely kills your starting skills) is worth the same as two levels in a real character class? *shudder*When making PCs, removing racial hit dice from the equation and only going by the LA is the only reasonable thing to do, unless you're talking about something like a giant that probably has 3 HD at birth and couldn't possibly make sense as a 1st level character with only one HD...</blockquote>