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<blockquote data-quote="Fieari" data-source="post: 3107658" data-attributes="member: 16221">Upper Krust has a nice set of formula to derive the ECL of any given creature.&nbsp; Using version 5 of his ECL document, he gives the following ECLs for dragons.The first number is the result of the formula with all factors.&nbsp; This involves fractional ECLs, as you might imagine.&nbsp; The second number is the &quot;Golden Rule&quot;, which says &quot;Class Levels or Hit Dice should always comprise at least 50% of the creatures total CR. When they don’t, halve all excess CR beyond double the creatures CR modifier for Character Levels and Hit Dice.&quot;&nbsp; The golden rule also rounds down fractions.The third number is the &quot;Silver Rule&quot;, which says &quot;These results show us that, using this system, at non-epic levels PCs have (on average) a 16% advantage over their monstrous peers. So if you wanted to be incredibly accurate you could multiply up to the first 20 points of a monsters CR by 85% (x 0.85) to redress class imbalance. This imbalance stops from CR 20 onwards, so for creatures of CR 20+ simply subtract 3 from the score; since that represents the 15% drop in the first 20 points of CR.&quot;The silver rule is optional though, and the Golden Rule might be the best bet.In general, although these numbers are excruciatingly accurate, you can simply say &quot;Dragon ECL = 2x CR&quot;.&nbsp; In general, &quot;non-dragon ECL = 3/2 CR&quot;.&nbsp; That's not 100% accurate in all cases, but it's a good general rule that works most of the time.[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Base&nbsp; &nbsp; Golden&nbsp; &nbsp; Silver&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ECL&nbsp; &nbsp; Rule&nbsp; &nbsp; RuleDragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Black:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 6.24&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 5Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 9.69&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 8Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13.57&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 11Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 16.684&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 14Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 23.486&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; 20Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 29.573&nbsp; &nbsp; 29&nbsp; &nbsp; 26Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 34.923&nbsp; &nbsp; 33&nbsp; &nbsp; 30Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 38.874&nbsp; &nbsp; 38&nbsp; &nbsp; 35Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 43.732&nbsp; &nbsp; 42&nbsp; &nbsp; 39Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 47.903&nbsp; &nbsp; 47&nbsp; &nbsp; 44Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 55.099&nbsp; &nbsp; 53&nbsp; &nbsp; 50Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 59.98&nbsp; &nbsp; 57&nbsp; &nbsp; 54Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Blue:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 9.115&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 7Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 12.91&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 10Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16.515&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 14Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 22.26&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 19Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 28.311&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; 24Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 35.114&nbsp; &nbsp; 33&nbsp; &nbsp; 30Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 41.015&nbsp; &nbsp; 38&nbsp; &nbsp; 35Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 44.265&nbsp; &nbsp; 42&nbsp; &nbsp; 39Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 48.45&nbsp; &nbsp; 46&nbsp; &nbsp; 43Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 55.899&nbsp; &nbsp; 52&nbsp; &nbsp; 49Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 60.41&nbsp; &nbsp; 57&nbsp; &nbsp; 54Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 65.416&nbsp; &nbsp; 61&nbsp; &nbsp; 58Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Green:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.21&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 6Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.95&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 10Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 13Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 20.99&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 17Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 26.786&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 23Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 33.77&nbsp; &nbsp; 31&nbsp; &nbsp; 28Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 37.873&nbsp; &nbsp; 36&nbsp; &nbsp; 33Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 42.802&nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; 37Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 46.938&nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 42Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 54.26&nbsp; &nbsp; 51&nbsp; &nbsp; 48Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 58.61&nbsp; &nbsp; 55&nbsp; &nbsp; 52Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 63.504&nbsp; &nbsp; 60&nbsp; &nbsp; 57Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Red:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 10.41&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 8Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.77&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 13Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 20.47&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 16Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 23.924&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; 20Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 32.046&nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; 27Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 36.998&nbsp; &nbsp; 34&nbsp; &nbsp; 31Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 41.714&nbsp; &nbsp; 39&nbsp; &nbsp; 36Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 48.965&nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 42Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 54.105&nbsp; &nbsp; 50&nbsp; &nbsp; 47Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.345&nbsp; &nbsp; 55&nbsp; &nbsp; 52Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 63.911&nbsp; &nbsp; 59&nbsp; &nbsp; 56Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 71.973&nbsp; &nbsp; 65&nbsp; &nbsp; 62Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; White:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 5.05&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 4Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.26&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 7Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 10Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.174&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 12Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 21.046&nbsp; &nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; 18Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 25.256&nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; &nbsp; 22Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 32.122&nbsp; &nbsp; 31&nbsp; &nbsp; 28Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 36.096&nbsp; &nbsp; 36&nbsp; &nbsp; 33Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 41.023&nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; 37Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 42Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 51.729&nbsp; &nbsp; 50&nbsp; &nbsp; 47Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 57.132&nbsp; &nbsp; 55&nbsp; &nbsp; 52Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Brass:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 6.703&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 5Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 10.116&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 8Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14.799&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 12Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 18.544&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 15Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.046&nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; &nbsp; 22Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 30.251&nbsp; &nbsp; 29&nbsp; &nbsp; 26Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 37.025&nbsp; &nbsp; 35&nbsp; &nbsp; 32Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 41.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 39&nbsp; &nbsp; 36Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 46.099&nbsp; &nbsp; 44&nbsp; &nbsp; 41Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 50.41&nbsp; &nbsp; 48&nbsp; &nbsp; 45Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 57.608&nbsp; &nbsp; 54&nbsp; &nbsp; 51Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 62.245&nbsp; &nbsp; 58&nbsp; &nbsp; 55Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Bronze:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.463&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 8Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.206&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 12Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 19.399&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 15Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 25.332&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; 20Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 31.231&nbsp; &nbsp; 29&nbsp; &nbsp; 26Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 38.272&nbsp; &nbsp; 34&nbsp; &nbsp; 31Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 42.402&nbsp; &nbsp; 39&nbsp; &nbsp; 36Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 47.334&nbsp; &nbsp; 43&nbsp; &nbsp; 40Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 51.482&nbsp; &nbsp; 48&nbsp; &nbsp; 45Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 58.93&nbsp; &nbsp; 54&nbsp; &nbsp; 51Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 63.904&nbsp; &nbsp; 58&nbsp; &nbsp; 55Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 68.417&nbsp; &nbsp; 63&nbsp; &nbsp; 60Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Copper:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 7.79&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 6Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.24&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 9Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15.96&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 13Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 19.73&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 16Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.166&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 23Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 32.366&nbsp; &nbsp; 31&nbsp; &nbsp; 28Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 39.48&nbsp; &nbsp; 36&nbsp; &nbsp; 33Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 42.804&nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; 37Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 47.692&nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 42Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 51.935&nbsp; &nbsp; 49&nbsp; &nbsp; 46Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.143&nbsp; &nbsp; 55&nbsp; &nbsp; 52Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 63.733&nbsp; &nbsp; 60&nbsp; &nbsp; 57Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Gold:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 13.31&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 10Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 18.92&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 15Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 22.77&nbsp; &nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; 18Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 28.672&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; 24Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 35.665&nbsp; &nbsp; 32&nbsp; &nbsp; 29Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 40.603&nbsp; &nbsp; 37&nbsp; &nbsp; 34Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 45.111&nbsp; &nbsp; 42&nbsp; &nbsp; 39Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 53.517&nbsp; &nbsp; 48&nbsp; &nbsp; 45Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 58.561&nbsp; &nbsp; 53&nbsp; &nbsp; 50Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 64.065&nbsp; &nbsp; 58&nbsp; &nbsp; 55Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 71.507&nbsp; &nbsp; 64&nbsp; &nbsp; 61Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 77.212&nbsp; &nbsp; 69&nbsp; &nbsp; 66Dragon,&nbsp; &nbsp; Silver:Wyrmling&nbsp; &nbsp; 12.065&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 9Very Young&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.96&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 13Young&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 20.005&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 16Juvenile&nbsp; &nbsp; 26.002&nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; &nbsp; 22Young Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 32.004&nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; 27Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 39.989&nbsp; &nbsp; 35&nbsp; &nbsp; 32Mature Adult&nbsp; &nbsp; 43.256&nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; 37Old&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 48.324&nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 42Very Old&nbsp; &nbsp; 53.127&nbsp; &nbsp; 49&nbsp; &nbsp; 46Ancient&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 60.0675&nbsp; &nbsp; 55&nbsp; &nbsp; 52Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 66.11&nbsp; &nbsp; 60&nbsp; &nbsp; 57Great Wyrm&nbsp; &nbsp; 74.234&nbsp; &nbsp; 67&nbsp; &nbsp; 64[/code]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fieari, post: 3107658, member: 16221"] Upper Krust has a nice set of formula to derive the ECL of any given creature. Using version 5 of his ECL document, he gives the following ECLs for dragons. The first number is the result of the formula with all factors. This involves fractional ECLs, as you might imagine. The second number is the "Golden Rule", which says "Class Levels or Hit Dice should always comprise at least 50% of the creatures total CR. When they don’t, halve all excess CR beyond double the creatures CR modifier for Character Levels and Hit Dice." The golden rule also rounds down fractions. The third number is the "Silver Rule", which says "These results show us that, using this system, at non-epic levels PCs have (on average) a 16% advantage over their monstrous peers. So if you wanted to be incredibly accurate you could multiply up to the first 20 points of a monsters CR by 85% (x 0.85) to redress class imbalance. This imbalance stops from CR 20 onwards, so for creatures of CR 20+ simply subtract 3 from the score; since that represents the 15% drop in the first 20 points of CR." The silver rule is optional though, and the Golden Rule might be the best bet. In general, although these numbers are excruciatingly accurate, you can simply say "Dragon ECL = 2x CR". In general, "non-dragon ECL = 3/2 CR". That's not 100% accurate in all cases, but it's a good general rule that works most of the time. [code] Base Golden Silver ECL Rule Rule Dragon, Black: Wyrmling 6.24 6 5 Very Young 9.69 9 8 Young 13.57 13 11 Juvenile 16.684 16 14 Young Adult 23.486 23 20 Adult 29.573 29 26 Mature Adult 34.923 33 30 Old 38.874 38 35 Very Old 43.732 42 39 Ancient 47.903 47 44 Wyrm 55.099 53 50 Great Wyrm 59.98 57 54 Dragon, Blue: Wyrmling 9.115 9 7 Very Young 12.91 12 10 Young 16.515 16 14 Juvenile 22.26 22 19 Young Adult 28.311 27 24 Adult 35.114 33 30 Mature Adult 41.015 38 35 Old 44.265 42 39 Very Old 48.45 46 43 Ancient 55.899 52 49 Wyrm 60.41 57 54 Great Wyrm 65.416 61 58 Dragon, Green: Wyrmling 8.21 7 6 Very Young 11.95 11 10 Young 15.6 15 13 Juvenile 20.99 20 17 Young Adult 26.786 26 23 Adult 33.77 31 28 Mature Adult 37.873 36 33 Old 42.802 40 37 Very Old 46.938 45 42 Ancient 54.26 51 48 Wyrm 58.61 55 52 Great Wyrm 63.504 60 57 Dragon, Red: Wyrmling 10.41 10 8 Very Young 15.77 15 13 Young 20.47 19 16 Juvenile 23.924 23 20 Young Adult 32.046 30 27 Adult 36.998 34 31 Mature Adult 41.714 39 36 Old 48.965 45 42 Very Old 54.105 50 47 Ancient 59.345 55 52 Wyrm 63.911 59 56 Great Wyrm 71.973 65 62 Dragon, White: Wyrmling 5.05 4 4 Very Young 8.26 8 7 Young 11.9 11 10 Juvenile 15.174 15 12 Young Adult 21.046 21 18 Adult 25.256 25 22 Mature Adult 32.122 31 28 Old 36.096 36 33 Very Old 41.023 40 37 Ancient 45 45 42 Wyrm 51.729 50 47 Great Wyrm 57.132 55 52 Dragon, Brass: Wyrmling 6.703 6 5 Very Young 10.116 10 8 Young 14.799 14 12 Juvenile 18.544 18 15 Young Adult 27.046 25 22 Adult 30.251 29 26 Mature Adult 37.025 35 32 Old 41.2 39 36 Very Old 46.099 44 41 Ancient 50.41 48 45 Wyrm 57.608 54 51 Great Wyrm 62.245 58 55 Dragon, Bronze: Wyrmling 11.463 10 8 Very Young 15.206 14 12 Young 19.399 18 15 Juvenile 25.332 23 20 Young Adult 31.231 29 26 Adult 38.272 34 31 Mature Adult 42.402 39 36 Old 47.334 43 40 Very Old 51.482 48 45 Ancient 58.93 54 51 Wyrm 63.904 58 55 Great Wyrm 68.417 63 60 Dragon, Copper: Wyrmling 7.79 7 6 Very Young 11.24 11 9 Young 15.96 15 13 Juvenile 19.73 19 16 Young Adult 27.166 26 23 Adult 32.366 31 28 Mature Adult 39.48 36 33 Old 42.804 40 37 Very Old 47.692 45 42 Ancient 51.935 49 46 Wyrm 59.143 55 52 Great Wyrm 63.733 60 57 Dragon, Gold: Wyrmling 13.31 12 10 Very Young 18.92 17 15 Young 22.77 21 18 Juvenile 28.672 27 24 Young Adult 35.665 32 29 Adult 40.603 37 34 Mature Adult 45.111 42 39 Old 53.517 48 45 Very Old 58.561 53 50 Ancient 64.065 58 55 Wyrm 71.507 64 61 Great Wyrm 77.212 69 66 Dragon, Silver: Wyrmling 12.065 11 9 Very Young 15.96 15 13 Young 20.005 19 16 Juvenile 26.002 25 22 Young Adult 32.004 30 27 Adult 39.989 35 32 Mature Adult 43.256 40 37 Old 48.324 45 42 Very Old 53.127 49 46 Ancient 60.0675 55 52 Wyrm 66.11 60 57 Great Wyrm 74.234 67 64[/code] [/QUOTE]

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