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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kreynolds" data-source="post: 290444" data-attributes="member: 2829">Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Epic TemplatesExactly, but the CR of this template is dependant upon the CR of the creature it is applied to. Now, I know that CR does not equal ECL, but the point is that a Goblin will have a low ECL because it has a low CR and a Balor will have a high ECL because it has a high CR.Wait a minute...now that I've looked at it closer...Not exactly. I'm thinking they accidentally reversed the CR modifiers of the different sizes of hit die creatures, thus they reversed the ECL of the creature it would apply to as well. Take a look.Take the hit point increase, for instance. The Paragon template gives you 12 extra hit points per hit die, and what's futher, you get max hit points. Both a Balor and a Goblin have a d8 for hit die, but do they get equal gain? Nope. A Goblin has a Constitution score of 11, which will earn him no extra hit points unless he raises his score from taking class levels. This is one of the reasons it's ECL, and CR, are so low. A Balor, on the other hand, has a Constitution score of 19, which will earn him 4 extra hit points with each class level he takes, or with each hit die he advances.Furthermore, a Goblin's average hit points is only half of it's max hit points (4 out of 8), whereas a Balor's average hit points is roughly three quarters of it's max hit points (110 out of 156), precisely because it has a much higher Constitution.Now, if a Balor has an average of 110 hit points, and you slap on the Paragon template, it suddenly gets 312 hit points (156 points higher than it's normal maximum and 202 higher than it's normal average), but then you take into account it's new Constitution score of 34, which will net the Balor 8 extra hit points per hit die from increased Con, which is 104 hit points, bringing our total hit points of a Paragon Balor to 416.Now, if a Goblin has an average of 4 hit points, and you slap on the Paragon template, it suddenly gets a meager 12 hit points (4 points higher than it's normal maximum and 8 points higher than it's normal average), but then you take into account it's new Constitution score of 26, which will net the Goblin 8 extra hit points from it's increased Con for it's single hit die, bringing our total hit points of a Paragon Goblin to 28. That's one hell of a difference.According to the template, the CR of a Paragon Goblin would be a whopping 18.25 (compared to it's original CR of .25, 18 points higher), and the CR of a Paragon Balor would only be a 30 (compared to it's original CR of 18, only 12 points higher).But, obviously, the Paragon Balor is still a hell of a lot nastier than a Paragon Goblin, and we've only touched the iceberg, as this is only hit points so far. We haven't even gone into attack capabilities.I can only conclude that the CR modifiers are backwards, that they should at the very least read like this: Challenge Rating: Up to 6 HD, as base creature +12; 7 HD to 15 HD, as base creature +15; 16+ HD, as base creature +18.Wierd.</blockquote>

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