Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
ECL Races, EVER worth it?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="MoogleEmpMog" data-source="post: 2452281" data-attributes="member: 22882"><p><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes (and various hybrids thereof) in the party invalidate your assumption? If not, why not? What, aside from the fact it didn't appear in Tolkien, makes a kobold more exotic than a halfling? For that matter, what makes an aasimar more exotic than an elf - an elf of Middle Earth or folklore is considerably farther from human than a D&D aasimar!</p><p></p><p>If you objected to <u>any</u> non-human race being balanced with (and therefore better than at certain tasks) humans, I suppose I could understand it. I certainly prefer a Sword & Sorcery "humans make up either the entire or almost the entire sentient population" model.</p><p></p><p>Besides, even if the PCs are 100% exotic (however you happen to define exotic), the world around them may be 99.99% human. The demographics of a group of nigh-cosmically powerful wandering adventurers do not generally correspond to the demographics of a typical village.</p><p></p><p>If your human character is mechanically inferior, the rules aren't doing their job - any more than they are if a hill giant character of the same ECL is mechanically inferior.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're talking about a default <u>setting</u>.</p><p></p><p>I'm talking about default <u>rules</u>.</p><p></p><p>If Greyhawk wants to tell me than 99% of the population is human, I have no problem with that. If Greyhawk wants to tell me that hobgoblins and hill giants are dangerous foes but mysteriously become pathetic losers when they go adventuring... I do have a problem with that.</p><p></p><p>The best case scenario is that players always feel that choosing a race is a matter of preference (and perhaps campaign). That ogre, human, elf, hobgoblin and troll PCs are equally viable. That a monstrous character will overshadow a non-monstrous character exactly as often as two non-monstrous characters overshadow each other. Obviously, that's never going to happen - perfect game balance is neither necessary nor possible. It's also not a bad ideal to aspire to, certainly better than having the generic <u>rules</u> impacted by the specific <u>setting</u>.</p><p></p><p>Some players have access to the MM and DMG. Some don't. Some don't even have PHBs! If, out of a group of six players, one has all three books, one has a PHB and a MM, one has a PHB and a DMG, two have PHBs and one borrows from the DM at the table, at "worst" three have ready access to a Monster Manual.</p><p></p><p>As for "power creep," fixing that is the responsibility of designers and developers on one end, and DMs on the other. 3.5 D&D has done a fine job of keeping it in check on the design and development end; as for the DM's end, that I can't say because it varies from group to group.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MoogleEmpMog, post: 2452281, member: 22882"] :confused: Do elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes (and various hybrids thereof) in the party invalidate your assumption? If not, why not? What, aside from the fact it didn't appear in Tolkien, makes a kobold more exotic than a halfling? For that matter, what makes an aasimar more exotic than an elf - an elf of Middle Earth or folklore is considerably farther from human than a D&D aasimar! If you objected to [U]any[/U] non-human race being balanced with (and therefore better than at certain tasks) humans, I suppose I could understand it. I certainly prefer a Sword & Sorcery "humans make up either the entire or almost the entire sentient population" model. Besides, even if the PCs are 100% exotic (however you happen to define exotic), the world around them may be 99.99% human. The demographics of a group of nigh-cosmically powerful wandering adventurers do not generally correspond to the demographics of a typical village. If your human character is mechanically inferior, the rules aren't doing their job - any more than they are if a hill giant character of the same ECL is mechanically inferior. You're talking about a default [U]setting[/U]. I'm talking about default [U]rules[/U]. If Greyhawk wants to tell me than 99% of the population is human, I have no problem with that. If Greyhawk wants to tell me that hobgoblins and hill giants are dangerous foes but mysteriously become pathetic losers when they go adventuring... I do have a problem with that. The best case scenario is that players always feel that choosing a race is a matter of preference (and perhaps campaign). That ogre, human, elf, hobgoblin and troll PCs are equally viable. That a monstrous character will overshadow a non-monstrous character exactly as often as two non-monstrous characters overshadow each other. Obviously, that's never going to happen - perfect game balance is neither necessary nor possible. It's also not a bad ideal to aspire to, certainly better than having the generic [U]rules[/U] impacted by the specific [U]setting[/U]. Some players have access to the MM and DMG. Some don't. Some don't even have PHBs! If, out of a group of six players, one has all three books, one has a PHB and a MM, one has a PHB and a DMG, two have PHBs and one borrows from the DM at the table, at "worst" three have ready access to a Monster Manual. As for "power creep," fixing that is the responsibility of designers and developers on one end, and DMs on the other. 3.5 D&D has done a fine job of keeping it in check on the design and development end; as for the DM's end, that I can't say because it varies from group to group. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
ECL Races, EVER worth it?
Top