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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6257671" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Star Trek's Federation was certainly conceived as a sort of Marxist Humanist Utopia by Roddenberry - communism as it were, done right, where freedom and respect for rights coexisted with economic parity. Kirk famously insists that the Federation has no money.</p><p></p><p>Exactly how it works is an entire other question, as the economic details of the Federation are no more explained than the economic details of Marx's projected communist economic systems. There is at least one nuclear war in the past of Earth by the time of the Federation, so we can see how it might get put into place - but its never explained how it actually works.</p><p></p><p>For example, who decides how much economic resources to spend on Star Fleet vessels? The Federation has sufficient manufacturing capacity, but its clearly not unlimited capacity. So, obviously if it comes down to building a person a private skyscraper and launching another Constellation class cruiser, something has to go. Is Star Fleet subject to civilian commanders, or is this pretty much a military autocracy however benevolent? Are we seeing only a window in to what is functionally the Federation's aristocracy? What's life like for your average Federation citizen - the sort that are dead even before the red shirts start dying? Are elections held regularly or at all? Do Federation citizens have any real say in or control over their government? It seems like most colonies tend to have a central leader figure/cult of personality figure who is in charge (and this figure is usually insane or corrupt) as opposed to any sort of complex government. Ok, so everyone gets basic necessities taken care of, but let's say you want to own a farm, a vineyard, a starship, or a planet? One of the fundamental theorems of economics is that human wants are unlimited. Who gets to decide who gets what they want? AI seems to be illegal, so who is doing all the jobs that humans generally don't find intellectually rewarding and stimulating? Genetic engineering also seems to be illegal, so what is happening with all the idiots that can't become top star fleet officers? What is there life like? If you don't have money, can anyone have property and if you have property but not money, is basically everything on the barter system? And if you don't have property, to what extent does anyone actually have rights? What actually happens with political or religious minorities that dissent from the overall socialist/humanist system? Are they allowed colony worlds, and how are they proportioned? Or are they ruthlessly crushed and people/children sent to reeducation camps?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I take it you've never worked much in homeless shelters or food pantries, or really done much social work at all. The fundamental causes of poverty aren't easily removed from a society regardless of the manufacturing capacity you develop. Presumably an advanced society can cure mental illnesses that have a chemical basis, but even that is hard, since the person being cured needs to cooperate and if they don't cooperate things get ugly in a hurry. But even an advanced society probably can't cure all the insanity that has no chemical basis. The wealthy and the educated are just as wasteful, mean, and emotionally dysfunctional as the poor, deprived, and ignorant. Dislocation occurs not only at higher tech levels, but arguably increasingly at higher tech levels. And witness what happens in Hollywood with people who objectively have every material comfort that they could want, as well as fame, clout, and a presumably intellectually fulfilling career. Suicide, divorce, anti-social behavior, etc. Make everyone rich, doesn't make everyone good, well-adjusted or happy. There are no easy answers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6257671, member: 4937"] Star Trek's Federation was certainly conceived as a sort of Marxist Humanist Utopia by Roddenberry - communism as it were, done right, where freedom and respect for rights coexisted with economic parity. Kirk famously insists that the Federation has no money. Exactly how it works is an entire other question, as the economic details of the Federation are no more explained than the economic details of Marx's projected communist economic systems. There is at least one nuclear war in the past of Earth by the time of the Federation, so we can see how it might get put into place - but its never explained how it actually works. For example, who decides how much economic resources to spend on Star Fleet vessels? The Federation has sufficient manufacturing capacity, but its clearly not unlimited capacity. So, obviously if it comes down to building a person a private skyscraper and launching another Constellation class cruiser, something has to go. Is Star Fleet subject to civilian commanders, or is this pretty much a military autocracy however benevolent? Are we seeing only a window in to what is functionally the Federation's aristocracy? What's life like for your average Federation citizen - the sort that are dead even before the red shirts start dying? Are elections held regularly or at all? Do Federation citizens have any real say in or control over their government? It seems like most colonies tend to have a central leader figure/cult of personality figure who is in charge (and this figure is usually insane or corrupt) as opposed to any sort of complex government. Ok, so everyone gets basic necessities taken care of, but let's say you want to own a farm, a vineyard, a starship, or a planet? One of the fundamental theorems of economics is that human wants are unlimited. Who gets to decide who gets what they want? AI seems to be illegal, so who is doing all the jobs that humans generally don't find intellectually rewarding and stimulating? Genetic engineering also seems to be illegal, so what is happening with all the idiots that can't become top star fleet officers? What is there life like? If you don't have money, can anyone have property and if you have property but not money, is basically everything on the barter system? And if you don't have property, to what extent does anyone actually have rights? What actually happens with political or religious minorities that dissent from the overall socialist/humanist system? Are they allowed colony worlds, and how are they proportioned? Or are they ruthlessly crushed and people/children sent to reeducation camps? I take it you've never worked much in homeless shelters or food pantries, or really done much social work at all. The fundamental causes of poverty aren't easily removed from a society regardless of the manufacturing capacity you develop. Presumably an advanced society can cure mental illnesses that have a chemical basis, but even that is hard, since the person being cured needs to cooperate and if they don't cooperate things get ugly in a hurry. But even an advanced society probably can't cure all the insanity that has no chemical basis. The wealthy and the educated are just as wasteful, mean, and emotionally dysfunctional as the poor, deprived, and ignorant. Dislocation occurs not only at higher tech levels, but arguably increasingly at higher tech levels. And witness what happens in Hollywood with people who objectively have every material comfort that they could want, as well as fame, clout, and a presumably intellectually fulfilling career. Suicide, divorce, anti-social behavior, etc. Make everyone rich, doesn't make everyone good, well-adjusted or happy. There are no easy answers. [/QUOTE]
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