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Message: <blockquote data-quote="taliesin15" data-source="post: 4293331" data-attributes="member: 22058">gizmo writes One thing I will give you on this is most books I've read have suggested that the lower classes do tend to eat better if they are farmers in a rural setting. However, some point out that after the Norman Conquest (most of the books I've read are on England), the feudal system was set up so that the Lord of the Manor took much of the surplus, even having the right to deflower virgin young women before their wedding night (to me that's monstrous no matter how you cut it, tantamount to rape). And, as we've both alluded to, after the Black Plague, things did get a bit better for the peasants.But my impression is the gruel diet was not because the Commoners were living in prosperous cities, but because they were in cities, period. I have the distinct impression the author's point in the Venice Arsenal book (supported by some other books on Venice I've read) is that there were still very poor Commoners there *despite the fact* they were living in one of the most prosperous cities in Europe at the time.I think the "quaintly romantic" comment was more directed to people with extremely wrong-headed ideas, you are much more reasonable and informed than these kinds of people. Here's a quick example on another sort of forum altogether: a group of people were trying to assert that within 50 years of Gutenberg, peasants all over Europe were buying books (octavo sized, as popularized by Venetian publisher Aldus Manutius). I'm sure I need say no more. From what I recall, the gruel was indeed grain-based, though sometimes enhanced with suet and even lesser desired offal cuts. But these were very meager, according to sources I read. So, the diet was not entirely without protein. Legumes too were used, and cheese & other dairy, though to a much lesser extent. FWIW, I seem to recall that many books on medieval England (one in particular mainly about the context behind Piers Plowman) assert that the main alcoholic beverage of the lower classes was Cider--but Ale was widely consumed too. I'm sure you already know that it was common that a large pint of cider or ale was imbibed at lunch. And of course that many monks drank throughout the day. Well, I've seen that asserted so many times that I am left to wonder if you're not describing more well-to-do Commoners, and I'm describing the lowest of the low, the sort of people so desperate that they easily flocked to the banner of Wat Tyler. Or easily joined in on Viking raids because the harvests were so poor in Scandanavia.In any case, I think we're still in some general agreement on the main point, right, that 1st lvl Commoners would not generally have 900 gp in Gear Value? I think that's at the heart of the issue here--I myself was never under the impression that is was an all-grain diet, more that it was a rather sickening-sounding, nasty-tasting, not very appetizing one. The book on Venice I cited before makes it clear that the meats Commoners ate on religious feast days were things like roast joints of pork, mutton and beef--not a thin pasty soup with a lot of fat. As a professional chef, one of my interests is historical cuisine, and one of the trends I see right now is a resurgence in interest in slow food, and in many parts of Western Europe, this traditionally means offal and "lesser cuts" that take longer to do right. In other words, people had to really learn to cook. However, I get the distinct impression that this kind of cooking really starts among the Commoners in the 17th Century. Anthony Bourdain has some interesting comments on this in his episode on Paris.That's a fair point, though I've always understood that all those people with a bit of land and livestock were more of the well-to-do sort of Commoner. Those with milk cows and chickens could afford to feed their growing family, not to mention grow peas and other legumes in their kitchen garden. See, I really don't think we're that far apart here. Maybe by comparison would be to look at the Indian caste system, look at the "untouchables" and the classes right above them?Fair enough. I'm suggesting though that trapping and fishing might be easier for those at the lowest end of the economic scale, these folks don't have to spring 75 gp for a Long Bow.Don't you think it a bit funny that the payscale for Commoners doesn't reflect a "boomtown" economy, but the price for LongBows does? That's exactly the sort of thing that made me question "NPC Gear Value" vis a vis the "GP limit" in the first place--inconsistencies in the suggested economics in the game in the first place. And, did you see my earlier remark about Scythes? A Scythe costs more than a Long Sword?!You know, that's a very salient point. Anytime there's some kind of intelligent guidance in the DMG (whether TSR or WoTC) on developing urban settings and societies more generally in one's campaign milieu, I greatly appreciate it. That said, I am more often dissapointed. As always, its up to the DM. But, hey, at least we do have this forum, where we can break this down and be of some service, even if its just the two of us helping each other. Especially that we've sorted out the "gruel issue"!The way I tend to handle these kinds of areas is that the main threats would come from wolves and wildcats (apparently there was something akin to the mountain lion or cougar in Western European forests, now all but extinct). On occasion, you do have the odd small band of marauding hobgoblins, pair of ogres, or abomination like an Ankheg or Owlbear. My assumption is that Kingdoms such as I have described have generally been scoured of "monsters," but naturally some might "move into the cleared hex square" (Ist edition DMG paraphrase), and as a side note, most of the Kings have verbal agreements with the very powerful Druids not to perpetrate genocide on natural predators (though killing a wolf who is directly posing a threat to a village's livestock is another matter altogether). Do you still think this is paradoxical? I'm suggesting that the sparsely settled areas would be outlying farm and ranch areas (some mining & timber) that have been settled in recent generations, a reflection of a growing Kingdom, that initially started along several major river valleys and in a naturally protected bay on the coast, and has slowly started to expand outwards into was once wilderness, now "safer" because the King's Men cleared those areas of "monsters" (again magical beasts, aberrations and the like). This expansion is itself the result of overpopulation (or surplus population) in already settled areas, or as some may put it, ambition, gumption and determination to make one's own way in some kind of pioneer spirit. FWIW, the system I have provides some of the taxes, polls, etc. for the King, and some for local sheriffs/soldiers. The King employs two kind of Rangers, one group more of a low to mid level routine patrolling force (which also employs a mobile force of low lvl Warriors), and high lvl Elite, almost "Special Forces," group of Rangers that she jointly funds and shares with the Queen of the Elves to the north. They do things like investigate reports that there's a Red Dragon hanging out in the mountains.I think we're entirely in agreement on this.Good point there. Perhaps second to this would be the mobile force of Genghis Khan's horsemen? Or maybe that would be first...Certainly reasonable concerns. I do think even given our consensus that most Commoners would not have 900 gp worth of gear (I'm thinking 50 to 200 gp at most would be more realistic; that, entirely aside from land and livestock), thorps still have a fair amount of wealth and not that much defense. And its interesting to compare and contrast with Humanoid lairs, given especially that every adult humanoid is armed to the teeth. Well, let's discuss the specific. An hour's ride on a horse at top speed. That's what I'm considering relatively isolated. An organized hit and run would have to take such facts into consideration, and they want to hit fast and with surprise on their side, and get out. Fast. LOL!!! Grumgarr want fairy cakes!On the one hand, I'm trying to come up with an original challenge for the PCs--who is knocking off Thorps in the Kingdom, is it the Slavers? Etc. But my primary goal here was to point out what I saw as inconsistencies, and try to see what other people thought beyond the obvious "its up to the DM to figure out."</blockquote>

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