Effects of Torture

[AuraSeer]

Rules Shmules!

Uh oh, you've done it now. Did you forget what forum you're in? You better get running now before the rest of 'em see what you said.

(Hey, is there a smiley that carries a pitchfork and a burning torch?)

If the dwarf has always been tough as nails and would rather die than make a sound, they'll just beat him harder. Skip rolls and checks and roll play. If the wizard knows to suck up his pride and squeal and pretend to be wholly broken to buy time, let him.

If you rely solely on the player's acting ability, why bother with the D20 rules at all? Save yourself some cash, forgo buying the books, and go back to Cowboys And Indians.
"The agony is too much, you scream in pain."
"I do not! I'm tough!"
"Tougher people have been broken by torture."
"Nobody's tougher than me. Dwarf fighters have special training to resist pain!"
"You're making that up!"
"Am not!"
"Are too!"

Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

I'm still haunted by memories of 13 yr old geeks making up percentile charts to see of they could find paid companions in bars or how well they performed. (shudder)

I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe you should stop playing FATAL with 13-year-olds, and start playing D&D with adults.

 

[mkletch]

I'd rather role play than "roll play".

-Fletch

 

[mkletch]

If you rely solely on the player's acting ability, why bother with the D20 rules at all? Save yourself some cash, forgo buying the books, and go back to Cowboys And Indians.
"The agony is too much, you scream in pain."
"I do not! I'm tough!"
"Tougher people have been broken by torture."
"Nobody's tougher than me. Dwarf fighters have special training to resist pain!"
"You're making that up!"
"Am not!"
"Are too!"

Wow. I just about fell out of my seat. This bit of prose gets a gold star for being funnier than the tarrasque in a miniskirt. I play with someone who envisions his dwarven characters this way.

-Fletch!

 

[kramis]

toture system

I use a simple system for torture that seems pretty effective.

DC's are set by a torturers "torture skill", which is INT based.

Every "unit of torture" (use your imagination/judgement) requires first a Will save to avoid talking to some degree. If you only barely fail you tell a little info, if you fail by a lot you tell everything.

You also have to make a concurrent Fort save. If you fail this you lose Temp Wisdom representing your Will being broken, and making you more likely to fail your next Will save.

We haven't dealt with other types of permenent drains yet, but I would probably rule for more severe and long lasting tortures temp and perm Con drains would be in order, but this would seem more to be on the days of torture level, unless direct and immediate disfigurement was the idea (we've only had a lower level of torture come up).

 

[Deset Gled]

Less painful permanent damage

It makes sense to me that torture (when done correctly, anyway) should have some effects that last longer than just temporary ability damage, but I also agree that permanent ability loss might be a bit on the harsh side.

Instead of physical damage given to the character, how about some good old fashioned mental scarring? Maybe a morale penalty to all actions the next time you face the person that tortured you (or alternatively, any time you face that type of creeature again)? The specifics should probably be up to the DM, but something along the lines of a Will save once an hour, starting at 10 and increasing by 1 every hour. Once they fail, they will suffer a permanent morale penalty of 1 point penalty for every hour until they are rescued to all attacks rolls, concentration rolls, or skill rolls in the presence of that person.

Of course, if you don't like dealing with the numbers that much, you could just as easily name an arbitrary number for the penalty depending on how bad you want the torture to be.

 

[maddman75]

An optional rule in the stronghold builder's guidebook--

Easiest way is to use a simple intimidate check. If the DM desires, for every hour of torture the character takes 1d3 points of constitution damage and provides a cumulative +1 bonus to the torturer's Intimidate checks. This situation allows a reroll once an hour. If his con reaches 0, he dies.

I'd probably use this if it ever came up, but then I consider the default indimidation rules kind of whacked - I have it opposing Intimidate or Concentration.

In Ravenloft, I'd apply a hefty horror and madness check should the character survive, as well as a powers check for the torturer.

 

[aliensex]

I tend to agree. That is what the Intimidate skill is for, forcably making a prisoner confess, by any means. You could even oppose the torturers Intimidate with the prisoner's bluff, or sense motive checks. After checking the results, role play it from there. Since this is fantasy, I don't think there is a need for any kind of permanent damage. Unless he is being truly mutilated to the point of causing near death. I mean, healing fixes just about all physical damage (like slogging through a tough battle and scraping by with 1 hit point), so no reason to enforce permanent ability (or temporary) damage here.

Of course, there are the mental effects...

 

[The_lone_gunman]

However you do it, I would suggest it be opposed rolls with torturer vs. torturee with a progressively higher bonus given to the torturer the longer it goes on, and perhaps with a max cap bonus based upon the skill level of the torturer.

TLG

 

[Zephalon]

So now we have some interesting tidbits of rules here. Let's try and make an "unofficial" official rule out of it.

I.
Some of you mentioned a save (will or fortitude) with a DC set by an opposed roll (Intimidate or Profession(torturer)).

II.
This save is done every "time unit" of torture.

III.
Failing it results in:

a) mental domination
- revelation of secrets or confession by the tortured person

b) damage in the form of:
- ability drain (like the stronghold builder rule)
- hp damage (not so good because of abstract damage discussion)
- morale penalties to various actions
- mental damage (for example catatonia, paranoia etc.)
- state like being staggered, shaken, fatigued, exhausted

Here is my opinion on this:

I.
a) I would prefer Profession(torturer) to Intimidate because:

- they have different goals
i.e. causing pain, getting information & punishing vs. frightening someone and making them do what you want

- I don't want every PC/NPC being able to professionally torture people

- It was a job back in the days and required a good deal of knowledge unless the landlord wanted his prisoners to die too fast through torture (before they confessed and betrayed their allies)

b) Fortitude vs. Will
As will represents self-control it is most appropriate to withstand the interrogating effects of torture. Fortitude on the other hand protects against the damage. I would require both saves, one for the mental effect of giving in, the other for damage resistance.

II. Assume a normal work day (8 hours) for the following reasons:

- nobody (umh, the torturer) wants the tortured person to die too fast or become unconscious, so they give them some rest

- in normal circumstances the common prisoner doesn't have a team of skilled torturers all by himself who can torture him all day long

- to short time units would lead to fast deaths on part of the tortured characters, removing any chance of rescue (game reason)

III.
Failing a save results in an effect chosen by the torturer before making the saves.

Effects:

Mental domination (Will save)
- interrogation (the tormented person tells every secret)
- terror (-2 morale bonus to all checks concerning the torturers organization)
- mental disability (chosen randomly by the DM)
- hopelessness (character looses 1d3 WILL)

Physical Punishment (Fortitude save)
In addition to loosing 1 CON the character looses ability points through:
- crippling (character looses 1d3 STR or DEX as chosen by the torturer)
- disfigurement (character looses 1d3 CHA)
- endless pain (character looses 1d3 CON)

All points lost are permanent and can only be restored through spells like restoration or better (well in a world where raise dead is commonplace, at least for people escaping or surving such an encounter, this is not too harsh).

Characters who suffered physical damage through torture are disabled (only partial actions) until healed (successful Heal check (DC 15) or spell with healing descriptor of at least level 1).

Characters who suffered mental effects are shaken until they succeed at a will save (DC 15 + days of torture), retrieable every day.

 

[Corlon]

So now we have some interesting tidbits of rules here. Let's try and make an "unofficial" official rule out of it.

I.
Some of you mentioned a save (will or fortitude) with a DC set by an opposed roll (Intimidate or Profession(torturer)).

II.
This save is done every "time unit" of torture.

III.
Failing it results in:

a) mental domination
- revelation of secrets or confession by the tortured person

b) damage in the form of:
- ability drain (like the stronghold builder rule)
- hp damage (not so good because of abstract damage discussion)
- morale penalties to various actions
- mental damage (for example catatonia, paranoia etc.)
- state like being staggered, shaken, fatigued, exhausted

Here is my opinion on this:

I.
a) I would prefer Profession(torturer) to Intimidate because:

- they have different goals
i.e. causing pain, getting information & punishing vs. frightening someone and making them do what you want

- I don't want every PC/NPC being able to professionally torture people

- It was a job back in the days and required a good deal of knowledge unless the landlord wanted his prisoners to die too fast through torture (before they confessed and betrayed their allies)

b) Fortitude vs. Will
As will represents self-control it is most appropriate to withstand the interrogating effects of torture. Fortitude on the other hand protects against the damage. I would require both saves, one for the mental effect of giving in, the other for damage resistance.

II. Assume a normal work day (8 hours) for the following reasons:

- nobody (umh, the torturer) wants the tortured person to die too fast or become unconscious, so they give them some rest

- in normal circumstances the common prisoner doesn't have a team of skilled torturers all by himself who can torture him all day long

- to short time units would lead to fast deaths on part of the tortured characters, removing any chance of rescue (game reason)

III.
Failing a save results in an effect chosen by the torturer before making the saves.

Effects:

Mental domination (Will save)
- interrogation (the tormented person tells every secret)
- terror (-2 morale bonus to all checks concerning the torturers organization)
- mental disability (chosen randomly by the DM)
- hopelessness (character looses 1d3 WILL)

Physical Punishment (Fortitude save)
In addition to loosing 1 CON the character looses ability points through:
- crippling (character looses 1d3 STR or DEX as chosen by the torturer)
- disfigurement (character looses 1d3 CHA)
- endless pain (character looses 1d3 CON)

All points lost are permanent and can only be restored through spells like restoration or better (well in a world where raise dead is commonplace, at least for people escaping or surving such an encounter, this is not too harsh).

Characters who suffered physical damage through torture are disabled (only partial actions) until healed (successful Heal check (DC 15) or spell with healing descriptor of at least level 1).

Characters who suffered mental effects are shaken until they succeed at a will save (DC 15 + days of torture), retrieable every day.

hmm, nice, except i'd say that for the mental torture, a dwarf thats hard as nails, but as dumb as a... shoe, could still resist telling secrets, I'd say make a table that says when the person fails by X amount, then something different happens, such as failing by as much as five does the shaken thing and the character tells a certain amount of secrets. These secrets should be rated according to the character, who cares about the man you saw walking about in the street, but who would give up the place of their headquarters?