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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 372095" data-attributes="member: 3146">Spell FinesseWell, the reason I avoided the rogue as an example was to avoid the rock/paper/scissors situation. Consider the same wizard hitting the fighter with a polymorph other. DC=14 (level)+4 greater spell focus)+11 (32 int)=29 or 35 with spell finesse (min clvl 7; cast at 8th level for +6 DC). The fighter has a pretty good fort save. +10 level, +5 cloak, +4 con (I'm assuming the fighter can't have a really good con since he probably spent most of his money on strength items etc. These are both characters that are built on 28-32 point buy. A +4 con item is still pretty reasonable for this level). Total +19 fort. Normally, the fighter needs to roll a 10 (which he'll do 55% of the time) in order to succeed at what is probably his best save. With spell finesse, the fighter needs to roll a 16 (Which he'll do 25% of the time--less than half as often).  The fighter's chance to save was cut in half by the +6 DC. I don't think that is a balanced situation. In fact it only serves to enhance the rock/paper/scissorsness of a high level game.It may be argued that the fighter would in all likelihood have a better fort save than +19 (due to multiclassing and prestige classes or being a dwarf (assuming the same base stats and items a dwarf would have +24 against that spell IIRC). However, the wizard can also do better than those DCs by picking prestige classes, making use of non-core spells (triple empowered fox's cunning or Monte Cook's BOEM Greater Magical Flow Enhancer, etc.) or prestige classes so I think the possibilities for ramping up are about equal on both sides.The wizard is semi-maximized to demonstrate the effects of stacking. He could be much worse (As it stands 16 int+5 level increases+6 headband+5 wish/tome is pretty standard. The wizard could easily be 18 +5 level +5 wish/tome +6 headband for 34 effective int and if you allow grey/sun elves, he could be 20+ all that for 36 effective int. He could also have archmage or elemental savant levels to boost the save even more.) In any event, the point is that +4 DC isn't always +4 DC. Greater spell focus itself is only +2 DC for one feat (there's another +2 from spell focus which is its prereq). However, since this would stack with all of the other ways to increase DCs, it would be that much more powerful.The essential argument is that the power of stacking DC enhancing abilities is exponential. Spell focus is powerful by itself but becomes much more powerful when you add another +2 with greater spell focus. Both of those become more powerful when you add a headband of intellect, etc. Adding another way to increase DCs has that same exponential effect (except that this way to increase DCs increases them much more than spell focus, greater spell focus, the headband, stat increases, or wishes--in fact you will often need to add two of those other ways together in order to equal the Spell Finesse DC). The wizard v fighter demonstration is primarily intended as an example of this.As to the SR argument, it doesn't wash with me. I played in a short term 15th level game and nobody except the monk had SR of any kind. We were all relatively new to the game but that does say something. The only common ways I can think of to gain SR are:1. Being a monk2. Armor of spell resistance (rather weak SR that is pretty useless at high levels)3. Holy Aura, etc.4. Spell Resistance (the clerical spell)There may be others but I'm not sure what they are. In any event, SR is far from guaranteed in high level PC vs NPC encounters.</blockquote>

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