Elemental Correspondances(bit of a ramble, just looking to discuss the concepts)

[Merlion]

Ok in base DnD we have your 4 basic elements(air, earth, fire, water) and 5 "energy" types(Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic). DnD and indeed fantasy in general have long linked Air and Electricity(Lightning) and Water and Cold(Ice). Also in the past in DnD Acid often got tied to Water since acids are generaly liquid etc. However in recent DnD(most notably with the Elemental Savant prestige class) Acid has been linked with Earth. Also in Mongoose's Encyclopedia Arcane on Elementalism Sonic and Air are linked somewhat(which I can kind of see) and also each of the elements is given various higher spell correspondances(such as linking Water to Healing and many weather related spells, Air to Electricity, Sonic, all gas type spells and at the highest correspondance, mind affecting spellsetc, Fire to change etc, and Earth to strength and stability).
Now the Acid/Earth thing is odd to me. Of course the thing is there've always been very few directly earth related spells, especialy for mages. You've got your rock to mud and vice versa, stone to flesh and vice versa and thats very nearly it.
Elementalism in magic is a subject I'm very fond of, and I'd just like to get some opnions about all thease things.

 

[Merlion]

Any thoughts? Anyone?

 

[Enkhidu]

If you can find it, pick up the Dragon magazine archive. I can't remember the issue, but one of the issues in the 70 to 90 range have an article about the elemental and paraelemental planes, and how they all react with the positive and negative planes.

Oh - and I just forgot - you can alos get a lot of this info from the old Planescape boxed set.

 

[Merlion]

Yea I know...I have the old planescape stuff(although its packed up in a box in my mom's basement).
I'm trying to stick more to the 4 elements and the 5 energy types and to more current incarnations.

 

[schporto]

Well my thoughts were always that its a kind of color wheel. My one change is that Fire is the element and not a energy. Then:
Sonic Air Elec
Water Fire
Cold Earth Acid
In other words:
Sonic = Air + Water
Electricity = Air + Fire
Cold = Water + Earth
Acid = Earth + Fire
Really though I'd want to put the acid as a combo of water and earth (earth for the salts and water to mix make acid if I remember chemistry). But fire makes some sense. I have no idea if this makes sense though.
-cpd

 

[Merlion]

It does and its quite interesting...relatively accurate to. Although I dont see any connection between Water and Sonic. I can understand the Electrecity/Fire connection but its never really sat well with me. and I dont understand your reasoning for the Earth component in cold exactly...not saying its bad just not getting it.
However I personaly prefer one-on-one systems. So to me Fire-Fire Water-Cold Air-Electricity all work fine. I can understand Air-Sonic also. But I dont see Acid-Earth. Water-Earth-Acid or just Water-Acid makes sense but not Earth-Acid.
I have also often thought about "higher correspondances" for elements. Encyclopedia Arcane: Elementalism did a great job on the idea mechanicaly I just dont agree with some of the decisions.
Theirs three tiers for each element. Basicaly Fire is 1)Fire 2) Electrecity3) spells relating to change(polymorh etc. Water is 1) Cold spells and strongly water related weather spells 2) Poison and rust spells, grease 3) Healing spells. Air is 1) gas/fog spells flight/levitation 2) Electrecity and Sonic and 3) mind spells. and Earth I dont remember very well..but it involved 1)directly earthy spells(transmute rock to mud etc) 2) vaguely earth spells(keen edge, Rusting Grasp), and 3) strength and stability spells(Bull's Strength Dimensional Anchor).
Most of this is good but I disagree with the association with Fire and Change(I see Change as a Water thing) especialy. And the Fire/Lighting thing just doesnt set well with me.
But back to "lower" correspondance I think their should be a broader range of Earth spells including some attacks instead of trying to wed Earth to an "energy" type...since Earth is arguebly the least energetic element.

 

[Tonguez]

Expanding the Elemental framework a bit to include the Alchemical substances of Sal (body), Aqua (Liquid/Soul) and Mecurius (Spirit/Essence)

we get

Water
Sal - Ice
Aqua- Water
Mecurius- Emotion

Earth
Sal-Mineral
Aqua- Metal
Mecurius-Body

Air
Sal-Sonic
Aqua-Lightning (Weather)
Mecurius-Mind

Fire
Sal-Force (*Kinetic energy)
Aqua-Light
Mecurius-Spirit

Acid = Earth (Mineral) + Water

 

[Merlion]

I'm not 100% f0llowing you...

 

[Tonguez]

Medieval Alchemy divided matter into three substances which could be derived through the Alchemaic process of
1 Combustion - burning (removing fire - to get Salts (sal))
2. Solution - mixing with water (removing earth to get Aqua (liquids - often acidic),
3. Distillation- steam distilling (removing water to get mecurius (Essence))

The resulting substance (Mecurius) - usually spirits and sometimes aethers then became the basis for creation of Quintessence (Philosophers stone)

Its bad chemistry but good alchemy

and remember that the energy correspondencies are a DnD creation not a medieval one

 

[Merlion]

Yea I know. although most of them are somewhat prevelant in fantasy literature as well.
I'm mainly looking for peoples thoughts on the current system.