Elemental Savant and a Cleric with the Fire Domain

[andargor]

Actually, come to think of it, I play an Elemental Savant (Fire), and the cleric in our group has the Fire Domain. The situation never has come up.

Andargor

 

[Corsair]

The only mechanical way to define what is a fire or water creature is by subtype. Thus, I read it as creatures with the [Fire] subtype. Examples:

FIRE ELEMENTAL, Elemental (Fire, Extraplanar)
RED DRAGON, Dragon (Fire)
RAST, Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
THOQQUA, Elemental (Earth, Extraplanar, Fire)

Now this brings us to the Elemental Savant. Does she, or does she not gain the subtype? Looking at the Elemental Perfection ability, it clearly lists what the Savant gains.

• Type Elemental
• No need to sleep, eat, breathe
• Immune to stunning, critical hits, flanking
• Speed and movement modes
• Natural Attacks
• Special Attacks
• Special Qualities

It often references the chosen subtype which was picked at first level, but nowhere does it say she ever actually GAINS the subtype. Interestingly however, since the Fire Elemental's vulnerability to cold and immunity to fire are listed under its Special Qualities, the Savant gains these even though she never technically gains the [Fire] Subtype, which would give these by default. Of course this also means that the 10th level ability, Energy Immunity, is redundant. Odd. (Correction: Earth and Air savants would not normally get the immunities. This gives them acid or electric immunity. Also unlike a fire or water(cold) Savant, neither the Air nor Earth Savant gains the vulnerability which is included in the Special Qualities of the Elementals. Interesting twist.)

Conclusion: Fire domain allows rebuking [Fire] creatures. Savant does not actually have a [Fire] subtype. Fire domain cannot rebuke the Savant.

 

[Li Shenron]

If I had a situation like this in a game of mine, I'd have to rule that the Cleric could successfully rebuke the Wizard who, by becoming an elemental creature, he has to embrace also the penalties of it (like one becoming an outsider is subject to spells affecting outsiders).

The situation is definitely weird, so either the cleric should find a way to select which creatures to rebuke in order to exclude the wizard (maybe some divine feat does that undead), or they should just stay far enough from each other when the cleric turns other fire creatures - or in the extreme case the wizard may just not get the last level of the PrCl.

 

[andargor]

It often references the chosen subtype which was picked at first level, but nowhere does it say she ever actually GAINS the subtype.

An elemental needs a subtype. There is no such thing as an elemental with no subtype.

Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

An elemental savant gains the speed and movement modes, natural attacks, special attacks, and special qualities of a Medium elemental of the type appropriate to her elemental specialty, as noted in the Monster Manual, except that the save DC against her elemental attack form, if any (whirlwind, burn, or vortex) is 20 + her Con modifier.

Note that "elemental traits" are a Special Quality of every Elemental.

Andargor

 

[Corsair]

An elemental needs a subtype. There is no such thing as an elemental with no subtype.

Note that "elemental traits" are a Special Quality of every Elemental.

Point 1: An elemental does not need a subtype. Do existing elementals have them? Yes. Does it say anywhere in the rules that elementals require them? No. What you are quoting is not mechanical text and has no bearing on the discussion.

Point 2: Elemental Traits:

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
• Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
• Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
• Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

Funny, I don't see subtype in there at all. If you as DM want to give them a subtype, that is your perogative, but it is not supported by the RAW.

 

[andargor]

Funny, I don't see subtype in there at all. If you as DM want to give them a subtype, that is your perogative, but it is not supported by the RAW.

No need to be snide.

I'll re-quote:

Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

So, you are saying that a creature composed of fire doesn't have the Fire subtype?

Andargor

 

[interwyrm]

There is also nothing stopping the elemental from casting dominate person on the cleric.

 

[Fieari]

Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

Using this as an example doesn't help, since further monster manuals have included other elemental creatures, like dust and ice and lightning, just off the top of my head. Not to mention void and quintessence.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

There is also nothing stopping the elemental from casting dominate person on the cleric.

Or roasting him like the annoying lump of meat he is. If someone started trying to rebuke my character for laughs, I'd start off with a Delayed Blast Fireball, followed by a quickened Burning Hands, then perhaps an energy substituted cone of cold, a quickened fireball, and if he's still standing, a disintegrate, to make sure he dies and stays dead.

And I'd wait until he's using the lavatory to do it. Nothing worse than dying in an outhouse.

Ah, intraparty conflict...so petty...so brief...

 

[Corsair]

No need to be snide.

I'll re-quote:



So, you are saying that a creature composed of fire doesn't have the Fire subtype?

Andargor

All you're doing is forcing me to give the same reply. That is not mechanical text.