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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6060347" data-attributes="member: 92511">Thankee! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> Exactly what I'm suggesting. Maybe not even all giants. But a few. Such as...Genies:&nbsp; Air Genie/Djinni &amp; Fire Genie/Efreeti... So I sez to myself, I sez,&nbsp; &quot;Oh Ok! There can be genies in the world. I get it.&quot;Faye Creatures: Brownies, Dryads, Redcaps... So I sez to myself, I sez, &quot;Oh Ok! There can be faeries in the world. I get it.&quot;Giants: Hill, Stone, Frost....I think that's plenty for a love-to-mid level MM. So I sez to myself...I think you get it.Hmmm.&nbsp; Well, this is certainly one way that it could go. But then you have to&nbsp; take into account the importance of the &quot;traditional&quot; and whether a&nbsp; change like this in presentation is just &quot;change for change's sake&quot;&nbsp; [which automatically gets a big thumbs down from me, regardless of&nbsp; topic] or would be hailed as &quot;innoVAAAAAAAtion.&quot; Personally, I&nbsp; think the pedigree of &quot;Hill giant, Frost giant, Storm giant&quot; and &quot;Red&nbsp; Dragon, Blue Dragon, Gold Dragon&quot; as D&amp;D tropes holds a little more&nbsp; weight (like, all of the aforementioned giants and dragons weighed&nbsp; together <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> than the need for &quot;slingy goblin, stabby goblin, chiefy&nbsp; goblin, bodyguard goblin, shaman goblin, etc...&quot; or, back on the&nbsp; elemental topic (since that is what the thread is really for) &quot;sultan&nbsp; efreet, deceiver efreet, not-so-firy efreet&quot; etc... ESPECIALLY if we're&nbsp; going to have a slurry of those &quot;individual critter&quot; names! Gods I hate&nbsp; those. I know they are supposed to be evocative...but just...they're&nbsp; not.This gamer would not. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Oo!&nbsp; No. But then I've never really used &quot;young dragons.&quot; If you&nbsp; find/encounter a dragon, it's a grown up and something to be vewwwwy&nbsp; careful around if not run away immediatey..at low levels.hmmm. Assuming an assumed cut off of 5-7th level for the PCs? (with a&nbsp; MM2 or &quot;Advanced Besitary&quot; or what have you to follow for levels 8+)&nbsp; Well, as mentioned above...Giants: I think Hill, Stone and Frost&nbsp; giants are a good start. Or all 6 if you like (Fire, Cloud, Storm as&nbsp; well). But I think 3 or 4 would suffice.Dragons, same. Either pick 3 or 4 to introduce and save the rest for later...but given that it is &quot;Dungeons &amp; Dragons&quot;&nbsp; they seem to be the exception that gets the full treatment. With a&nbsp; heavy dosing of &quot;These things are waaay bigger and badder than you can&nbsp; hope to be until middling-to-high levels. Handle with care.&quot;Demons/Devils:&nbsp; Personally, I'd go with Type 1 &amp; 2 (of demons and devils, so that'd&nbsp; be what? Barbed and Bone?) and the Succubus. Like I said, a Demogorgon&nbsp; (craaazy chaoz demon-eeeeevilllll!) and Orcus (craaaazy powerful&nbsp; undead-demon-eeeevillll) should suffice. The basic game doesn't need 15&nbsp; different &quot;Demon Lords&quot;. Throw in Dispater for the devil side of things&nbsp; (if the PCs are going to move any further than the 2nd level of Hell,&nbsp; before their damn powerful, then they deserve what they get).Powerful&nbsp; Undead: Vampires should be plenty tough enough. Liches should be&nbsp; treated as the near demi-gods they should be and considered almost as&nbsp; &quot;impossible to beat&quot; as dragons or demon/devil lords. Spectres can&nbsp; certainly be in, but I've never used them much or found them to be great&nbsp; as a &quot;big bad.&quot; Honestly, if you're going to have things like Wraiths&nbsp; and Shadows (to cover the incorporeal ground) then I'd hold off on&nbsp; spectres and banshees from the MM2.Genies: if presented as the &quot;Wish granting&quot; types trapped in stuff with IMMENSE COZZZMIK POWERZZZZ teeny tiny living space...then&nbsp; they're fairly high end foes. As opposed to the elemental magical&nbsp; beings who can come and go as they please to the Prime Material...who&nbsp; would still be formidable, but unlikely to serve as an end game villain.&nbsp; Based on the description of the article that started all of this, I&nbsp; would use the run-of-the-mill genies and leave the immense cozmik power&nbsp; guys for the next/planar book...this, of course, means things like the&nbsp; ring of djinni summoning and efreeti bottle just cnojure these &quot;regular&nbsp; joes.&quot;Faeries: nothing that is powerful enough to be considered a&nbsp; &quot;big bad&quot; from what I'm thinking. MM2 can deal with things like&nbsp; &quot;archfey&quot;...or, introduce ONE if you must.Traditional mythic:&nbsp; Medusae: always a solid choice for a very nice big bad. Minotaur, for&nbsp; that matter. Giv'em a lil' above-average-for-a-minotaur intelligence and&nbsp; off you go. Bestial warlord on the loose!That's it off the top&nbsp; of my head. The rest are your standard, material plane monsters and&nbsp; humanoids and giant/fantastical animals.--SD</blockquote>

[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 6060347, member: 92511"] Thankee! :D Exactly what I'm suggesting. Maybe not even [I]all [/I]giants. But a few. Such as... Genies: Air Genie/Djinni & Fire Genie/Efreeti... So I sez to myself, I sez, "Oh Ok! There can be genies in the world. I get it." Faye Creatures: Brownies, Dryads, Redcaps... So I sez to myself, I sez, "Oh Ok! There can be faeries in the world. I get it." Giants: Hill, Stone, Frost....I think that's plenty for a love-to-mid level MM. So I sez to myself...I think you get it. Hmmm. Well, this is certainly one way that it could go. But then you have to take into account the importance of the "traditional" and whether a change like this in presentation is just "change for change's sake" [which automatically gets a big thumbs down from me, regardless of topic] or would be hailed as "innoVAAAAAAAtion." Personally, I think the pedigree of "Hill giant, Frost giant, Storm giant" and "Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, Gold Dragon" as D&D tropes holds a little more weight (like, all of the aforementioned giants and dragons weighed together ;) than the need for "slingy goblin, stabby goblin, chiefy goblin, bodyguard goblin, shaman goblin, etc..." or, back on the elemental topic (since that is what the thread is really for) "sultan efreet, deceiver efreet, not-so-firy efreet" etc... ESPECIALLY if we're going to have a slurry of those "individual critter" names! Gods I hate those. I know they are supposed to be evocative...but just...they're not. This gamer would not. :) Oo! No. But then I've never really used "young dragons." If you find/encounter a dragon, it's a grown up and something to be vewwwwy careful around if not run away immediatey..at low levels. hmmm. Assuming an assumed cut off of 5-7th level for the PCs? (with a MM2 or "Advanced Besitary" or what have you to follow for levels 8+) Well, as mentioned above... Giants: I think Hill, Stone and Frost giants are a good start. Or all 6 if you like (Fire, Cloud, Storm as well). But I think 3 or 4 would suffice. Dragons, same. Either pick 3 or 4 to introduce and save the rest for later...but given that it is "Dungeons & [I]Dragons[/I]" they seem to be the exception that gets the full treatment. With a heavy dosing of "These things are waaay bigger and badder than you can hope to be until middling-to-high levels.[B] Handle with care.[/B]" Demons/Devils: Personally, I'd go with Type 1 & 2 (of demons and devils, so that'd be what? Barbed and Bone?) and the Succubus. Like I said, a Demogorgon (craaazy chaoz demon-eeeeevilllll!) and Orcus (craaaazy powerful undead-demon-eeeevillll) should suffice. The basic game doesn't need 15 different "Demon Lords". Throw in Dispater for the devil side of things (if the PCs are going to move any further than the 2nd level of Hell, before their damn powerful, then they deserve what they get). Powerful Undead: Vampires should be plenty tough enough. Liches should be treated as the near demi-gods they should be and considered almost as "impossible to beat" as dragons or demon/devil lords. Spectres can certainly be in, but I've never used them much or found them to be great as a "big bad." Honestly, if you're going to have things like Wraiths and Shadows (to cover the incorporeal ground) then I'd hold off on spectres and banshees from the MM2. Genies: if presented as the "Wish granting" types trapped in stuff with[SIZE=4] IMMENSE COZZZMIK POWERZZZZ[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]teeny tiny living space[/SIZE]...then they're fairly high end foes. As opposed to the elemental magical beings who can come and go as they please to the Prime Material...who would still be formidable, but unlikely to serve as an end game villain. Based on the description of the article that started all of this, I would use the run-of-the-mill genies and leave the immense cozmik power guys for the next/planar book...this, of course, means things like the ring of djinni summoning and efreeti bottle just cnojure these "regular joes." Faeries: nothing that is powerful enough to be considered a "big bad" from what I'm thinking. MM2 can deal with things like "archfey"...or, introduce ONE if you must. Traditional mythic: Medusae: always a solid choice for a very nice big bad. Minotaur, for that matter. Giv'em a lil' above-average-for-a-minotaur intelligence and off you go. Bestial warlord on the loose! That's it off the top of my head. The rest are your standard, material plane monsters and humanoids and giant/fantastical animals. --SD [/QUOTE]

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