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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mbgrove" data-source="post: 1544928" data-attributes="member: 14422">Heh...  That I did.  I knew I was writing about both of them, just didn't wait until I got to the Create stuff.  A classic example of reading what you know you wanted to write.  ::wry smile::Well, really my point was that it needs to be explicitly stated in the rules that you can't have something like (Abjure Force 2/Gen 0) and say that it is Abjure Force 1 twice to get +4 to saving throws instead of +3 that you would get with using all the MPs together. Basically, I /was/ saying that the spell is supposed to be giving an armor bonus.  However, I'm not seeing how Create Force by itself (according to the rules, anyway), without the Elemental Object enhancement, can give that armor bonus.  THAT is my point.  The "Mage Armor" and "Mage Plate" spells both use Create Force, but I can't find anywhere that says that (Create Force 1) gives an armor bonus by itself.  Specifically since it doesn't have a physical "version". (Essentially, when and how to use Elemental Object is giving me fits.  ::wry smile::  My thoughts on Create Force are below.)It won't harm the caster, though, so that's good.  You could wield your Create Fire-based sword and not be harmed.But again, with Elemental Object, if you use Create Force to create the mithril chain shirt in the example...  *I* am reading it that it would need to be (Create Force 3) to get the armor bonus, since it explicitly says that Force doesn't have a physical version  Yet, I can use (Create Fire 1) to give me that flamin' mithril chain shirt that gives me the armor bonus because it has a physical version?  No, not that either.  The Flaming Barrier example shows us that, for the Create Fire spell to actually be a barrier of any sort, it needs the Elemental Object enhancement.  So, what is the Elemental Object enhancement really doing for me?Basically, there are a couple of issues at hand here.1) Create Force - In my opinion, along with Metal, Earth, Ooze, Lava, Ice, and Crystal, wouldn't NEED Elemental Object, since they DO have physical manifestations that you can touch.  (In this way, I see Force as a force field type of thing.  The book says that it exists on both the material and ethereal planes.  I'm thinkin' that's a physical manifestation of force, which I would call a force field, which WOULD give an armor bonus.  But Elemental Object says otherwise.)2) I would think that all OTHER elements would need the Elemental Object in order to create a physical manifestation of the element that could be touched, hit or be used TO hit to do physical damage.  Personally, I've never known of fire or mist, for examples, to be able to deflect anything in a way that could be described in the game as an armor bonus or that would stop someone from physically running through it (with the exception of the fear of not wanting to get hurt by the fire).(Yes, this is somewhat getting bogged down in the "can it give an armor bonus", but trying to figure out /exactly/ what Elemental Object is doing for me is the issue at hand.)  Ok.  I follow.  But, my question here is, do I have to create something that is real and has monetary value?  Again, assuming a 5 MP spell, here are a couple of the "I'm going to create a 'weapon' and hit you with it" scenario:1) Create a greatsword (the 100 gp value category) out of Light and add Elemental Weapon to it.  So, I have 1 MP for the monetary value, 2 MPs for the Elemental Object and 1 MP for Elemental Damage Bonus of +1d6.  (Don't have enough to add another die.)  So, this would give us 2d6 physical damage from the sword itself and 1d6 of Light elemental damage.  Would look like (Create Light 4).OR could I2) Create a brightly glowing, light-saber lookin' "rod" of pure Light that /has/ no physical manifestation, but causes 3d6 Light damage.  This would be using (Create Light 5) with using all the MPs to fuel the Elemental Weapon.  So, at this point, all I'm doing is wielding a beam of pure Light.So...  could I create #2 with just using a "monetary value" of 20gp or less since it doesn't actually have a physical form?  Can I even DO the option in #2?(Yes, it's very possibly more "efficient" to create the sword with Elemental Object and tag on Elemental Weapon, but that's not the point.  ::wry smile:: )</blockquote>

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