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Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5927707" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>First, I just wanted to say that this has turned into an awesome thread. So thanks to all the posters over the past few pages.</p><p></p><p>Second, some replies.</p><p></p><p>Thee are good points about RQ. They are less true in RM than RQ, but RM is closer to RQ than classic D&D is. (Do you, or does anyone else, know about Chivalry & Sorcery in this respect? I've got rulebooks for the 3rd and 4th editions, but have never read them all the way through and don't know a lot about it.)</p><p></p><p>My RQ experiences have been with one-offs or short scenarios rather than campaigns. But there's no doubt that there's a lot to like about it! And even though I haven't played or GMed it for a long time, I like to (re-)read the rulebooks for ideas about how to handle things - like the spirit stuff you talk about, for instance.</p><p></p><p>I recently did a resurrection scene in my 4e game, and the way I handled the role of the gods and the priests I'm pretty sure was influenced by thinking about how RQ handles shamans and priests. (I've never really understood sorcerery in RQ - either the rules or the fiction.)</p><p></p><p>I agree that 4e doesn't really suit dungeon exploration. All the minutiae that dungeon exploration relies on, 4e does away with! (Thank heavens, in my view!)</p><p></p><p>And I think your last sentence probably describes my group pretty well.</p><p></p><p>I played only a tiny bit of 3E - I find it an unsatisfactory mix of gonzo and gritty. I played quite a bit of 2nd ed AD&D, and my main issue with that edition would be that the fiction promised something that the mechanics don't really deliver (I guess I'm a pretty orthodox Forge-ist in having that view - and I think it explains the tendency towards railroading that I see in 2nd ed modules).</p><p></p><p>I think your point about 3E being too serious in a certain sort of way is an interesting one. My feeling is that the playtest is going to produce pressure on D&Dnext to head in that sort of direction, though. (Because I don't get the vibe that PF reduces this sort of seriousness, and presumably recapturing some of that market is part of the plan.)</p><p></p><p>It's been a fair while since I've played that sort of D&D. </p><p>Which probably comes across as a snide criticism, but isn't meant to be. But my approach to the game was really shaped by Oriental Adventures (the original TSR version), which was all about PCs located in a rich setting with motivations going beyond the mere young Conan-esque.</p><p></p><p>It would be odd if the unity edition was too narrow to satisfactorily encompass Oriental Adventures, or Dragonlance!</p><p></p><p>My approach is similar to your describe-react-redescribe circuit, but with the redescriptions (by me as GM) heavily metagamed - as in I don't just extrapolate from the existing state of the fiction, but inject complications/pressures that will play on what I know to be the players' concerns/motivations. The biggest influence on my approach, I think, is the advice on running extended contests in Maelstrom Storytelling, and the discussion of Intent and Task in the Burning Wheel books.</p><p></p><p>I have used player stake setting, but not fully overtly - more implicitly, and heavily tied to the pre-established fiction. (As in, the pre-established fiction makes the stakes plausible in an intuitive, pre-action-resolution-mechanics-coming-into-play fashion.)</p><p></p><p>An interesting set of predictions.</p><p></p><p>You may be right. At this stage I'm not sure at all what's going on. There is obviously a very heavy marketing dimension to the playtest, but what is their strategy for retaining the 4e market in the meantime? Maybe that there is nowhere else that most of those players will go?</p><p></p><p>Glad I'm not Mike Mearls! He's got a hard job to pull off.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5927707, member: 42582"] First, I just wanted to say that this has turned into an awesome thread. So thanks to all the posters over the past few pages. Second, some replies. Thee are good points about RQ. They are less true in RM than RQ, but RM is closer to RQ than classic D&D is. (Do you, or does anyone else, know about Chivalry & Sorcery in this respect? I've got rulebooks for the 3rd and 4th editions, but have never read them all the way through and don't know a lot about it.) My RQ experiences have been with one-offs or short scenarios rather than campaigns. But there's no doubt that there's a lot to like about it! And even though I haven't played or GMed it for a long time, I like to (re-)read the rulebooks for ideas about how to handle things - like the spirit stuff you talk about, for instance. I recently did a resurrection scene in my 4e game, and the way I handled the role of the gods and the priests I'm pretty sure was influenced by thinking about how RQ handles shamans and priests. (I've never really understood sorcerery in RQ - either the rules or the fiction.) I agree that 4e doesn't really suit dungeon exploration. All the minutiae that dungeon exploration relies on, 4e does away with! (Thank heavens, in my view!) And I think your last sentence probably describes my group pretty well. I played only a tiny bit of 3E - I find it an unsatisfactory mix of gonzo and gritty. I played quite a bit of 2nd ed AD&D, and my main issue with that edition would be that the fiction promised something that the mechanics don't really deliver (I guess I'm a pretty orthodox Forge-ist in having that view - and I think it explains the tendency towards railroading that I see in 2nd ed modules). I think your point about 3E being too serious in a certain sort of way is an interesting one. My feeling is that the playtest is going to produce pressure on D&Dnext to head in that sort of direction, though. (Because I don't get the vibe that PF reduces this sort of seriousness, and presumably recapturing some of that market is part of the plan.) It's been a fair while since I've played that sort of D&D. Which probably comes across as a snide criticism, but isn't meant to be. But my approach to the game was really shaped by Oriental Adventures (the original TSR version), which was all about PCs located in a rich setting with motivations going beyond the mere young Conan-esque. It would be odd if the unity edition was too narrow to satisfactorily encompass Oriental Adventures, or Dragonlance! My approach is similar to your describe-react-redescribe circuit, but with the redescriptions (by me as GM) heavily metagamed - as in I don't just extrapolate from the existing state of the fiction, but inject complications/pressures that will play on what I know to be the players' concerns/motivations. The biggest influence on my approach, I think, is the advice on running extended contests in Maelstrom Storytelling, and the discussion of Intent and Task in the Burning Wheel books. I have used player stake setting, but not fully overtly - more implicitly, and heavily tied to the pre-established fiction. (As in, the pre-established fiction makes the stakes plausible in an intuitive, pre-action-resolution-mechanics-coming-into-play fashion.) An interesting set of predictions. You may be right. At this stage I'm not sure at all what's going on. There is obviously a very heavy marketing dimension to the playtest, but what is their strategy for retaining the 4e market in the meantime? Maybe that there is nowhere else that most of those players will go? Glad I'm not Mike Mearls! He's got a hard job to pull off. [/QUOTE]
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