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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Eliminating Class and Cross-Class Skills (3.5)
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5460266" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Let me suggest a comprimise position.</p><p></p><p>I run a high skill usage game. By that I mean that in most any session, even one where combat dominates our time usage, I generally expect there to be more skill checks than attack rolls. I think the biggest con you will have is that having a diverse list of skills is part of a classes features, and that in particular, in a well designed game part of the attraction of a class is that it provides skills that aren't otherwise easily available to the character or to the party as a whole. One of the dangers - especially in a low skill usage game where attack rolls are far more common than skill checks and only a few skills dominate - is that every player will see spot, listen, tumble, and the like as essential skills clearly superior to other choices and these necessities may squeeze out the variaty a class system is designed to encourage. Being the party best in a skill - being the go to guy in certain situations - is part of a player's sense of worth and enjoyment.</p><p></p><p>By contrast, I think of your potential benefits, only one you envision is both real in the sense that it will happen and strongly desirable in that you'd want it to happen: "It opens up character concepts. (Ex. Fighters who are well-versed in Arcana, Monk scholars (History), etc." I think you realize this to least a certain extent, because you list less costly 'access to PrCs' as both a pro and a con. I personally think you should be thinking of that as almost wholly a con.</p><p> </p><p>Openning up character concept flexibility is in fact desirable but it is not so desirable that I think you should do away with cross-class skills wholesale. Instead, I think you should make a change actually tightly focused on achieving that particular desire.</p><p></p><p>In my game I have a system of advantages and disadvantages. PC's are assumed to be 'advantaged characters' and start the game with a free advantage (and other bonuses) compared to the vast majority of NPC's. One of those advantages is called 'Unusual Background' and it allows the player to choose any three skills that aren't class exclusive (in other words, not skills that are effectively class features like Use Magic Device) and make them class skills of a particular class. So, for example, if you want to play a fighter who is versed in martial arts, you could take the advantage 'Unusual Background (Martial Artist)' and every time you took a level in fighter have Balance, Concentration and Tumble be among your class skills. Or, you could play a wizard who lacked a formal apprentiseship and learned his trade on the street and take 'Unusual Background (Gutter Mage)' and have Bluff, Hide, and Sleight of Hand be on your wizard's class skill list. (The other advantages are similarly designed to open up flexibility in starting character design, but don't as elegantly address the problem you are having now.)</p><p></p><p>Basically, I think that what you need to do is simply give Unusual Background or its equivalent to every PC, allowing them to customize their skill list slightly and usefully, but in a way that still preserves and enforces usual concepts like characterization, skill siloing, and group coohesion. Going this route will allow for customization and flexibility while minimizing the chance of unintended consequences and because it is flavorful it encourages PC's to at least partly choose skills because they match a concept, and not sololy because of mechanical utility.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5460266, member: 4937"] Let me suggest a comprimise position. I run a high skill usage game. By that I mean that in most any session, even one where combat dominates our time usage, I generally expect there to be more skill checks than attack rolls. I think the biggest con you will have is that having a diverse list of skills is part of a classes features, and that in particular, in a well designed game part of the attraction of a class is that it provides skills that aren't otherwise easily available to the character or to the party as a whole. One of the dangers - especially in a low skill usage game where attack rolls are far more common than skill checks and only a few skills dominate - is that every player will see spot, listen, tumble, and the like as essential skills clearly superior to other choices and these necessities may squeeze out the variaty a class system is designed to encourage. Being the party best in a skill - being the go to guy in certain situations - is part of a player's sense of worth and enjoyment. By contrast, I think of your potential benefits, only one you envision is both real in the sense that it will happen and strongly desirable in that you'd want it to happen: "It opens up character concepts. (Ex. Fighters who are well-versed in Arcana, Monk scholars (History), etc." I think you realize this to least a certain extent, because you list less costly 'access to PrCs' as both a pro and a con. I personally think you should be thinking of that as almost wholly a con. Openning up character concept flexibility is in fact desirable but it is not so desirable that I think you should do away with cross-class skills wholesale. Instead, I think you should make a change actually tightly focused on achieving that particular desire. In my game I have a system of advantages and disadvantages. PC's are assumed to be 'advantaged characters' and start the game with a free advantage (and other bonuses) compared to the vast majority of NPC's. One of those advantages is called 'Unusual Background' and it allows the player to choose any three skills that aren't class exclusive (in other words, not skills that are effectively class features like Use Magic Device) and make them class skills of a particular class. So, for example, if you want to play a fighter who is versed in martial arts, you could take the advantage 'Unusual Background (Martial Artist)' and every time you took a level in fighter have Balance, Concentration and Tumble be among your class skills. Or, you could play a wizard who lacked a formal apprentiseship and learned his trade on the street and take 'Unusual Background (Gutter Mage)' and have Bluff, Hide, and Sleight of Hand be on your wizard's class skill list. (The other advantages are similarly designed to open up flexibility in starting character design, but don't as elegantly address the problem you are having now.) Basically, I think that what you need to do is simply give Unusual Background or its equivalent to every PC, allowing them to customize their skill list slightly and usefully, but in a way that still preserves and enforces usual concepts like characterization, skill siloing, and group coohesion. Going this route will allow for customization and flexibility while minimizing the chance of unintended consequences and because it is flavorful it encourages PC's to at least partly choose skills because they match a concept, and not sololy because of mechanical utility. [/QUOTE]
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Eliminating Class and Cross-Class Skills (3.5)
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