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Eliminating darkvision from most races
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7001155" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Sorry, I'm getting you shift the goalposts here. </p><p></p><p>I'm not advocating the removal of darkvision from PC races, or even from most PC races. Just enough PC races so the <em>entire</em> party won't have darkvision. The occasional PC with darkvision does no harm (and indeed, as is discussed, isn't overly powerful either). </p><p></p><p>But I firmly believe that in a world with darkvision, the benefits of a scout to have it, is enormous. Again, not that darkvision itself is so powerful (assuming the scout is "tethered" to a party using light), but that the difference compared to a scout <em>without</em> darkvision is.</p><p></p><p>I'm sure there are many campaigns with completely human scouts, and that they perform well even without darkvision. But that kind of assumes a human-centric campaign, an overland campaign, a daytime campaign. The kind of campaign perfectly encapsulated by the classic AD&D covers. </p><p></p><p>In a campaign featuring many darkvision-enabled adversaries, in an underground campaign, in a skulking around in the twilight (or even outright darkness) campaign, you simply can't be expected to do your job without darkvision. </p><p></p><p>So far so good. That's my take on things. </p><p></p><p>What I don't agree to is that you need to remove darkvision from monsters and enemy humanoids. I don't agree to it per se, and I don't agree to the implication that fixing darkvision is a complicated thing that needs many or large adjustments. </p><p></p><p>So I think you're overreacting: I think you oversimplifying the problem and overcomplicating the solution.</p><p></p><p>No, just because the party will (and perhaps even should?) use light, doesn't mean you must assume the party scout won't have darkvision.</p><p></p><p>And no, just because 5E has probably tipped the balance towards DV-enabled PC races too much doesn't mean you need to overreact by taking DV away from "most" player races. </p><p></p><p>And no, you don't need to mess around with NPC races or monsters either.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Instead, I firmly believe that y'all can get where you want to be (assuming you read this thread because at some level you agree to the OP) with small and measured adjustments. </p><p></p><p>There is no need to change NPCs. There is no need to change monsters. There is no concern the game balance is at risk. </p><p></p><p>Just switch Elves (and Half-Elves) over to night vision, and give that a try, before making any more profound changes. Chances are you might save yourself a lot of work <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>If that doesn't work, try another very simple approach. </p><p></p><p>Just talk to your players. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Tell them what I told mine when I was about to start Out of the Abyss: </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>"This campaign heavily relies on your characters wanting to get back to the surface. Your characters are supposed to find the Underdark an alien and scary place. </em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Therefore, I ask that you primarily choose between surface races, and try to avoid choosing native inhabitants of the Underdark. What I especially ask of you is that at least one of you choose a race without darkvision, so that the party relies on light.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>I don't want to outright prohibit any character concept, and I don't want to restrict your choices. I just want you to accept that you can't all play a renegade Drow, or a Svirfneblin or Duergar. And you can't all play Dwarves or Elves either. At least one of you should choose human or halfling (or dragonborn, I guess); preferably most of you."</em></p><p></p><p>As you can see, this leaves things open for maximum freedom of choice. </p><p></p><p>And especially one thing: if any player wanted to play as a scout (nobody chose the Rogue class in the end), I would definitely not condemn that player to playing a scout without darkvision. Not in a Underdark-themed campaign.</p><p></p><p>Regards</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7001155, member: 12731"] Sorry, I'm getting you shift the goalposts here. I'm not advocating the removal of darkvision from PC races, or even from most PC races. Just enough PC races so the [I]entire[/I] party won't have darkvision. The occasional PC with darkvision does no harm (and indeed, as is discussed, isn't overly powerful either). But I firmly believe that in a world with darkvision, the benefits of a scout to have it, is enormous. Again, not that darkvision itself is so powerful (assuming the scout is "tethered" to a party using light), but that the difference compared to a scout [I]without[/I] darkvision is. I'm sure there are many campaigns with completely human scouts, and that they perform well even without darkvision. But that kind of assumes a human-centric campaign, an overland campaign, a daytime campaign. The kind of campaign perfectly encapsulated by the classic AD&D covers. In a campaign featuring many darkvision-enabled adversaries, in an underground campaign, in a skulking around in the twilight (or even outright darkness) campaign, you simply can't be expected to do your job without darkvision. So far so good. That's my take on things. What I don't agree to is that you need to remove darkvision from monsters and enemy humanoids. I don't agree to it per se, and I don't agree to the implication that fixing darkvision is a complicated thing that needs many or large adjustments. So I think you're overreacting: I think you oversimplifying the problem and overcomplicating the solution. No, just because the party will (and perhaps even should?) use light, doesn't mean you must assume the party scout won't have darkvision. And no, just because 5E has probably tipped the balance towards DV-enabled PC races too much doesn't mean you need to overreact by taking DV away from "most" player races. And no, you don't need to mess around with NPC races or monsters either. --- Instead, I firmly believe that y'all can get where you want to be (assuming you read this thread because at some level you agree to the OP) with small and measured adjustments. There is no need to change NPCs. There is no need to change monsters. There is no concern the game balance is at risk. Just switch Elves (and Half-Elves) over to night vision, and give that a try, before making any more profound changes. Chances are you might save yourself a lot of work :) --- If that doesn't work, try another very simple approach. Just talk to your players. :) Tell them what I told mine when I was about to start Out of the Abyss: [INDENT][I]"This campaign heavily relies on your characters wanting to get back to the surface. Your characters are supposed to find the Underdark an alien and scary place. Therefore, I ask that you primarily choose between surface races, and try to avoid choosing native inhabitants of the Underdark. What I especially ask of you is that at least one of you choose a race without darkvision, so that the party relies on light. I don't want to outright prohibit any character concept, and I don't want to restrict your choices. I just want you to accept that you can't all play a renegade Drow, or a Svirfneblin or Duergar. And you can't all play Dwarves or Elves either. At least one of you should choose human or halfling (or dragonborn, I guess); preferably most of you."[/I][/INDENT] As you can see, this leaves things open for maximum freedom of choice. And especially one thing: if any player wanted to play as a scout (nobody chose the Rogue class in the end), I would definitely not condemn that player to playing a scout without darkvision. Not in a Underdark-themed campaign. Regards [/QUOTE]
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