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<blockquote data-quote="Ancalagon" data-source="post: 9502562" data-attributes="member: 23">I think the problem here is that we are using too over the top examples.&nbsp; Like the scenarios Treantmonk posted were a bit... silly, and relied on odd ruling, like someone bursting into a room with a damaging spell effect not triggering an initiative roll.&nbsp; It's easy and reasonable to dismiss this as whiteroom nonsense.&nbsp;&nbsp; So I'm going to craft a VERY REASONABLE example. Let us take a 4-member party.&nbsp; Let us supposed that only two members are taking part in these shenanigans, a druid and a barbarian.&nbsp; The other two are ... busy, it doesn't matter.&nbsp;&nbsp; This seems pretty reasonable so far yes?&nbsp;&nbsp; Also, to avoid the weirdness of one PC grappling another and moving them around, I'm going to make the barbarian big and strong, and the druid small and very plausibly easy to carry - maybe they shape changed into an owl (avoids AOO), maybe they are a little gnome.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is still very reasonable, yes?So there is a room with foes.&nbsp; The druid casts conjure animal and steps into the room, running around a bit and hitting everyone with the emanation.&nbsp; 5d8 damage to all the foes.&nbsp; Then the druid readies an action - something like &quot;when the next person in the initiative order does something, I dash!&quot;&nbsp; (this will only be possible on round 2 btw as the first round an action was required to cast the spell).&nbsp; The once again move into the room, doing 5d8 damage to everyone.&nbsp;&nbsp; Then the barbarian picks up the druid and does the same.&nbsp; Boom, 5d8 damage twice. (yes I know there is a save)So we're now doing 20d8 damage to all our foes, per round (15 d8 on round 1), with a single 4th level spell.&nbsp; &nbsp; I don't know about you, but I think we've already exceeded the &quot;is this balanced?&quot; threshold, by far.Now compare this to the 2014 rules, where to damage a foe &quot;more&quot; you had to push each foe into the emanation, vs just moving the emanation!&nbsp; Far, far more balanced.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ancalagon, post: 9502562, member: 23"] I think the problem here is that we are using too over the top examples. Like the scenarios Treantmonk posted were a bit... silly, and relied on odd ruling, like someone bursting into a room with a damaging spell effect not triggering an initiative roll. It's easy and reasonable to dismiss this as whiteroom nonsense. So I'm going to craft a VERY REASONABLE example. Let us take a 4-member party. Let us supposed that [I]only two[/I] members are taking part in these shenanigans, a druid and a barbarian. The other two are ... busy, it doesn't matter. This seems pretty reasonable so far yes? Also, to avoid the weirdness of one PC grappling another and moving them around, I'm going to make the barbarian big and strong, and the druid small and very plausibly easy to carry - maybe they shape changed into an owl (avoids AOO), maybe they are a little gnome. This is still very reasonable, yes? So there is a room with foes. The druid casts conjure animal and steps into the room, running around a bit and hitting everyone with the emanation. 5d8 damage to all the foes. Then the druid readies an action - something like "when the next person in the initiative order does something, I dash!" (this will only be possible on round 2 btw as the first round an action was required to cast the spell). The once again move into the room, doing 5d8 damage to everyone. Then the barbarian picks up the druid and does the same. Boom, 5d8 damage twice. (yes I know there is a save) So we're now doing 20d8 damage to all our foes, per round (15 d8 on round 1), with a single 4th level spell. I don't know about you, but I think we've already exceeded the "is this balanced?" threshold, by far. Now compare this to the 2014 rules, where to damage a foe "more" you had to [I]push each foe[/I] into the emanation, vs just moving the emanation! Far, far more balanced. [/QUOTE]

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