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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Reynard" data-source="post: 4641764" data-attributes="member: 467">One of the interesting results of 4E being so tightly designed and focused is that I think it would function well as a Players vs. DM kind of game.  We've all seen or at least heard of those kinds of games before, and it's often talked about in the negative, there is something to be said for competition as play.  Prior to 4E, however, it was always an extremely unfair contest (and still could be in 4E, but I'll get there in a minute).  In AD&D in particular, the balance of power at the table was so weighted toward the DM that any real attempt to "kill" the players would be trivial and not particularly fun. In 3E, more mechanical guidelines like CR and EL and WBL were introduced that could make such a contest more fair, but unfortunately a lot of game elements (monsters, treasure, traps, classes) broke those systems in such a way as to render them meaningless.4E, having not yet felt the bloat and having been designed from the ground up with "the maths" in mind seems like it might have all the tools necessary to pull this kind of game off.  Obviously, the DM still creates or at least runs the scenario, so there's plenty of potential for abuse.  But, if only official material is used, if all the rules are followed and if any "unusual situations" hew to the page 42 guidelines, it seems like the "fairness" would be maintained well enough for a successful Us vs Him/Her game.What I am thinking here is something along the lines of Descent, where the "DM" is a player that tries to eliminate the other players who make up a team of equals. It'd require some set up time and a strong agreement between the players and the DM, but I think such a game could be fun as a contest and a test of skill and will.You could take the tired old saw "An evil wizard has teleported you into the depth of his labrynth and dares you to escape with your lives and as much treasure as you can carry" and, with proper consideration for following the guidelines and being "fair", do your best as the DM to destroy the players as they move through the dungeon.I am not sure I'd want to playa  whole campaign like that, but it might be fun as a con game or an occassional diversion when folks just want to crush skulls to relieve stress.</blockquote>

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