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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mac Callum" data-source="post: 1682546" data-attributes="member: 17035">This was a good breakdown of the spells for how it would affect the PCs.  I disagree with some points though.  As a nit-pick Discern Lies is inferior to Zone of Truth in most respects.You’re missing my point though, or perhaps I completely misread your first post.  As I saw it you were asking what the world would be like – not how the PCs would be different.  Most of the effects I talked about are completely separate from what your PCs are doing.  Frankly, any one group of PCs is usually too small to affect the world in a meaningful way.  You can affect the NPCs around you and save the Princess and kill the Dragon, but the world itself and all the people in it usually march to an irresistible drummer.  At least, that’s how I see it.Thank you.  My point exactly.  I was just trying to explore the ramification of D&D magic.The theme I was trying to reach and touch was that a small number of casters, over time, would create magical items which would drastically affect all the ‘little people’ around them.  Once a Church put some effort into Permanent Purify Food & Drink spells into the city’s fountains or aqueducts, water born plagues are in the history bin (only needing 3rd level casters).  This has a big affect on the world.  A shortage of potable water was a major driver of city placement and other social practices, such a brewing beer and tea.  A couple Bottles of Endless Water left uncapped could meet the water needs of a decent sized city in the middle of the Sahara.  Its these magical affects which continue long after the original spellcaster is dead and buried that will have the biggest effect.  There are no rules that say, “magical items need maintenance” or “even ‘permanent’ items break down eventually.”  As a historical example when chainmail was first invented it was very expensive. However it tended to survive its wearers with only small repairs.  Eventually the Vikings built up such a supply of it that every warrior had a chainmail shirt.  It wasn’t easier to produce – it just accumulated.  I think the same would happen with magical items.That’s why I don’t run a ‘pure’ D&D world.  I’ve limited certain spells similarly to dren.  I’ve also incorporated rules for explaining how magical items deteriorate over time.  I think it’s cool that if you find an artifact in ancient ruins you have to be very careful.  It might work, it might be a dud, or it might be prone to wild surges.  Even common +1 Longswords may deteriorate this way over time, blowing up in a Flaming Sphere or something.  The time frame is long enough that it will never happen to the items the PCs commission, but it explains why in a world where hundreds of elven & dragon generations have passed since the gods created the races why there isn’t a magical item under every rock.My main rule-change is that Teleport cannot be made permanent.  That just changes too much.------------------------------------------------------------------------They're ALL invalid?   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  It's ok, I see that they aren't.Teleport Circle - Not every fishing village would have one, and I never said they would.  The point was that an Empire could be spaced out over several worlds, or be non-contigous on one world, etc.  I'm exploring remifications.  Without linking every burb in the world, it would definately change things if a Teleport Circle linked the subways of New York, London, Tokyo and Paris, wouldn't it?  Or Timbuktu?"As soon as the army moves"So what?  Protecting the supply lines is always a critical part of war.  My point was that Teleport Circles change everything.  Your argument does not refute that."The sheer cost of creating a pairs of permanent teleportation circles means that it would not be viable except between very important locations."Or very remote ones - such as Mars or Alpha Centauri.  This also makes it possible for Hannibal to skip the Alps and hit Rome directly with all his elephants healthy & rested.  If we're exploring a world that embraces the D&D-isms, that's something you have to think about."Fortresses would not be useless, the purpose of a fortress is to allow control of an area."I believe I said "Fortresses in a Moutain Pass would be pointless."  The would be.  The purpose of a Fortress in the Pass is to prevent troops from going through, because the moutains serve as a barrier.  With mass Troop Movement magics or flying Airships (a la Eberron) the mountains cease to be a barrier.  Now you've just got a Fortress far from the cities you're trying to protect.  You enemy goes right past your defenses without ever engaging them.  For historical referance see "The Maginot Line""The polymorph of workers will help drop construction times somewhat however all that means is less bodies needed to move the same amount of stone because polymorphing 2000 people is a huge task. In war the ability of both sides to polymorph and dispel their troops will balance out."This and several others are good points.  I'm just exploring the ramifications of D&D-isms.  Keeping a supply of Dispels on hand is good, but what's the range?  In imagining a D&D world, I'm imagining a defender's castle (blanketed in Dimension Anchors and Private Sanctums, of course) facing a line of troops augmented by Polymorphed troops.  A Trebuchet operated by Stone Giants probably has a greater range than Dispel Magic and throws stones the size of houses.  Ouch.  What's the counter?  A Titan with a Collosal Baseball bat?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> "Society will be changed but the level of change you suggest ignores the limitations of these spells."Maybe, but the limitations of related magical items is much fuzzier.Just a quick example:  Eberron has introduced the idea (which I have in my homebrews for a long time) of big, fixed items that change how spells work.  There's a foundation stone for houses which absorbs spells like Private Sanctum or Guards and Wards and extends the durations for days/ level.  There are Ship's Wheels which take weather control powers and guarantee calm weather around that ship - for only a 10% increase in the cost of the ship!These things change the rules.  So, just as one "for instance", imagine a magical item which costs gold & Xp to build up front, but has the following affects:  Plant Growth spells increase their crop output to 50% and the range to 10 mile diamaters.  Similar to a Metamagic Rod but it only works for that one spell.  Boom.  A single Druid can now substantially increase all of the fields around a big city in a week or two.  He can do this both in summer, fall and spring growing seasons.  I don't know what level Druid would be required to make that, but it only takes a 5th level Druid to use it.  Those aren't so rare that most Kingdoms with arable land wouldn't want it.Just as one example.</blockquote>

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