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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jimlock" data-source="post: 5695074" data-attributes="member: 6674931">Not fair again. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />You accused me, of using "mindless" differently without explaining myself, only AFTER I had ALREADY explained myself.But let's stick to the core of the debate shall we?You are missing something important here, but let me explain.Don't curse, swear or anything of the sort until you've read all of the following <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> :ALL undead are IMMUNE to MIND-AFFECTING effects. No matter how one interprets mind/brain/intelligence (be that my interpretation that undead are mindless in a sense that they have no mind/brain and that their intelligence and very existence stems from a supernatural unliving force... or yours... or any other interpretation) the fact remains that they are IMMUNE to MIND-AFFECTING effects, and having YOUR mind controlled is undoubtedly one such effect.So no one, no matter what, has the ability to control/affect the mind/brain/intelligence of the undead.Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)So then, what do these phrases actually say?A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. Well these two phrases say the following:They say that the cleric commands/controls the unlving force of the undead using HIS mind, not that he controls the mind of the undead. The cleric does not speak the commands he gives the undead, he thinks of them (therefore: under the mental control of... + give mental orders) Mental control is used in a totally different context here.Mental control has two meanings: a)Either YOUR mind is being controlled by something/someone, or b)YOU control something/someone with your mind.In the case of commanding undead it is obviously the latter (b). The cleric gives mental orders so as to command the undead. And again, let's not forget that undead are IMMUNE to mind affecting effects, and that mind/mental control would have been such an effect the undead would have been immune to.The cleric commands/controls the unliving force that makes the undead an undead, he does not have the control of a mind.On the other hand, PFE and Disobedience use "mental control"  the other way around. They both say:blocks any attempt to exercise mental control over the subject creatureThis time mental control is used as in (a). The spells, protect YOUR mind from being controlled by somebody else, no matter how the controller controls YOUR mind (be that with verbal orders or mental orders). Not that the phrase is unclear in that respect, but the enchantment examples that follow that phrase make it even clearer:including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subjectbecause enchantment says the following:Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.So again, command undead (be that by the spell or by rebuking) or any other command spell cannot be blocked by PFE and Disobedience.Check out what exactly?permits multiple commands over the duration?This spell functions like command, except that up to one creature per level may be affected, and the activities continue beyond 1 round. At the start of each commanded creature’s action after the first, it gets another Will save to attempt to break free from the spell. Each creature must receive the same command.In respect to "ongoing control" nothing changes from "Command" to Greater "Command"You give the subject a single command.This is not ongoing control.You are confusing "multiple commands" (as in multiple targets, which is what the spell says and which is irrelevant: except that up to one creature per level may be affected) with "multiple commands" (as in more than one command, which is not what the spell says).I'm not getting this anywhere. I keep it where i first put it since my first posts:That it still remains awkward how after the including and the such asthe only mental controls they block are the examples after the including (?), and that all Enchantment-Compulsions with "ongoing-control" is the Dominate effect, which is given again as a single example out of the more implied.I guess it's badly written, but I cannot be sure.If this was indeed their intention, why didn't they just say: "It blocks all Enchantment-charms and the Dominate spell/effect"? Perhaps it is so, but that wouldn't be neither Command/Rebuke Undead, nor any other Command spell or effect.</blockquote>

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