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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jimlock" data-source="post: 5695211" data-attributes="member: 6674931">I'm not extrapolating anything. NEVER did I claim that Immunity to Mind-affecting effects always implies that they do not have a mind to affect. This is putting words in my mouth. (see later on this post).I'm taking immunity to mind affecting-effects for what it is.When someone controls your mind , he AFFECTS your mind. Therefore if one is immune to mind affecting effects, he cannot have his mind controlled by somebody else.If you had a bucket of mind-affecting effects, "mental/mind control" (as in having YOUR mind CONTROLLED by others) is in this bucket. Plain and simple.The rules are clear as far as I'm concerned, and without any intention of sounding or being insulting, they are in the english language itself.And I say this, because the debate has unfortunately transcended from a rules discussion into a debate on the meaning of words and the meaning of combinations of words.As i explained in my previous post, "mental control" has two, pretty opposing meanings, and I explained both of them in my previous post. Mental control, what you just put in brackets and what you so feverishly present as a gaming-term/rule with a single meaning, is neither of the two. It is not a rule, nor has it a single meaning.Again--->Mental control has two meanings: a)Either YOUR mind is being controlled by something/someone, or b)YOU control something/someone with your mind.Honestly, I can't put it simpler than this. One meaning for the PFE+Disobedience case, different meaning for the Cleric-Undead case.a)PFE+Disobedience block someone from controlling your mind.b)The cleric mentally (by giving orders mentally - by using HIS mind) commands the undead.Read my previous post for further explanation.Moreover, nothing is based on an extrapolation, because as I explained earlier, there is no extrapolation to begin with.What? Jack, honestly, you are running around in circles.As I said earlier:Even if I had claimed that, for me, undead have a fine functioning brain, and that I justify the fact that they are Immune to mind-affecting effects because my bicycle is blue, it wouldn't make difference. Why? because undead are immune to it no matter how i like to picture it/imagine it.Again:NEVER did I claim that "Immunity to Mind-affecting effects always implies that they do not have a mind to affect". This is putting words in my mouth.And to save you the trouble of searching, what i said is this:after this.after this.So this is the time where I ask you the same question you asked me...Where are YOU getting this?Cause I don't think that your false claims are leading to anything constructive.</blockquote>

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