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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7846360" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>[USER=996]@Tony Vargas[/USER] : There seems to be some 4e partisanship going on in your response that makes a ton of assumptions.</p><p></p><p>For example, with respect to Theater of the Mind, most of the 1e/2e play that I did used TotM as well, but that didn't prevent terrain from having a big impact on the combat situation. Consider just as one of many examples, the terrain challenges poised by a module like S2: White Plume Mountain. Even if 1e didn't have a unified terrain and skill mechanics, terrain minigames specific to an encounter were common in 1e play even in situations where TotM play was assumed. I mean seriously, you wouldn't expect a 1e table accustomed to assume TotM play to nonetheless assume combat continued to function as normal if a Paladin in platemail fell into the salty sea while battling a squid. There would be certainly assumptions made about the ability of the Paladin to move in this new environment - to say nothing of breathing in it. Things like the spell 'Darkness' or just fighting at night creates terrain in 1e even if you are playing in 1e TotM. So I don't think you can say that because 5e assumes TotM that terrain doesn't have a big impact on combat and challenge within it.</p><p></p><p>As for the assignment of CR, 3e, Pathfinder, and 4e all had monsters which were notorious for being harder than their CR suggested, and which had they been published at the next higher CR probably wouldn't have caused much remark. And as far as I can tell as an outsider, 5e has continued this with several monsters being much harder than their CR would suggest - ropers, magmin, intellect devourers, shadows, zombies, etc. So when I say that the CR is wrong, I mean 'wrong' in a very literal sense that the wrong number was probably assigned to the CR. I mean that even given that all the system expectations were met, the monster in question not only on average outperforms the normal expected amount of party resources consumed, but actually usually forced the expenditure of the sort of resources expected by the next higher CR.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7846360, member: 4937"] [USER=996]@Tony Vargas[/USER] : There seems to be some 4e partisanship going on in your response that makes a ton of assumptions. For example, with respect to Theater of the Mind, most of the 1e/2e play that I did used TotM as well, but that didn't prevent terrain from having a big impact on the combat situation. Consider just as one of many examples, the terrain challenges poised by a module like S2: White Plume Mountain. Even if 1e didn't have a unified terrain and skill mechanics, terrain minigames specific to an encounter were common in 1e play even in situations where TotM play was assumed. I mean seriously, you wouldn't expect a 1e table accustomed to assume TotM play to nonetheless assume combat continued to function as normal if a Paladin in platemail fell into the salty sea while battling a squid. There would be certainly assumptions made about the ability of the Paladin to move in this new environment - to say nothing of breathing in it. Things like the spell 'Darkness' or just fighting at night creates terrain in 1e even if you are playing in 1e TotM. So I don't think you can say that because 5e assumes TotM that terrain doesn't have a big impact on combat and challenge within it. As for the assignment of CR, 3e, Pathfinder, and 4e all had monsters which were notorious for being harder than their CR suggested, and which had they been published at the next higher CR probably wouldn't have caused much remark. And as far as I can tell as an outsider, 5e has continued this with several monsters being much harder than their CR would suggest - ropers, magmin, intellect devourers, shadows, zombies, etc. So when I say that the CR is wrong, I mean 'wrong' in a very literal sense that the wrong number was probably assigned to the CR. I mean that even given that all the system expectations were met, the monster in question not only on average outperforms the normal expected amount of party resources consumed, but actually usually forced the expenditure of the sort of resources expected by the next higher CR. [/QUOTE]
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