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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Staffan" data-source="post: 8521129" data-attributes="member: 907">Severely underleveled creatures might pose the same overall challenge as 4e minions, but they work very differently. A level-4 creature in PF2 (let's call this a "lackey" for ease of use) and a same-level minion in 4e both count as 1/4 of a same-level regular creature when building encounters, but they'll have different effects on the game.A minion has the same attack bonus as a same-level creature, but they do less damage, and probably don't have any abilities that require upkeep (at least not creature-centric upkeep – dealing ongoing damage is a different thing). IIRC, the damage is more than 1/4 of a regular creature, but on the other hand you lose damage as more minions are taken care of so it balances out that way. A minion has about the same AC as a regular creature, but only 1 hp (and immunity to damage-on-miss/successful saves). That means that the GM basically doesn't need to do any book-keeping about a minion. As long as it's on the field, it'll do its stuff, and once you hit it it's gone.A lackey on the other hand has attack bonuses and AC that are way lower than a same-level creature, about 6 points (using the creature building guidelines). A level 7 martial PC will have an AC of about 25 (proficiency +9, base item + Dex +5, magic +1). A 7th level creature with a High attack bonus will have +18 (hit on 7, crit on 17, so a single strike will on average do 90% damage), and a 3rd level creature will have +12 (hit on 13, crit on 20, so on average 45% damage). Combine this with lower base damage (20 vs 12 for High damage), and the lackey will do 30% of a same-level creature's damage. That's on par with the 4e minion overall, but it is dealt in rarer hits for bigger chunks.The same happens in reverse. A level 7 PC will attack at +16 (prof +11, stat +4, item +1) against an AC of 25 (same level) or 19 (lackey). That's either hit on a 9 (crit on 19, average 70% damage) or hit on a 3 (crit on 13, average 130% damage). At level 7, a PC will be doing about 2d8 (striking rune) +4 (stat) +2 (weapon specialization), plus maybe 5-10 (call it 7) from various class shenanigans, for 22 per hit. That means that the first strike of a 7th level PC against a same-level creature will on average deal about 15.5 points, against a hp pool of about 115 points, which means 7-8 attacks on average (this gets more complicated with multiple attacks but that gets real complicated real fast). Against a lackey, the first strike will on average deal 28.5 points against a hp pool of 45, so it will on average take about 2 attacks to take out. So a lackey takes about 1/4 as much effort to take out.Taken together, this means that both minions and lackeys pose about 1/4 as much threat as a same-level regular creature, so they fill the same role in encounter math. However, the lackey is much more complex. You're rarely going to take it out in a single hit – well, maybe not that rarely, their hit points are in range of a crit that rolls a bit above average, but maybe one in six attacks will outright KO a lackey. That means you need to actually track their hit points, and probably a bunch of conditions and such. They also have the full complexity of any other creature, which might mean limited-use abilities to keep track of and stuff like that.Such as? PF2 cantrips are generally not all that open to flexibility. Plus, you don't get all that many of them – five in most cases. They're a good fallback for pew-pewing, but they won't do much beyond that. Ghost sound is the one I can see being a bit tricksy in the right situation, but other than that they're all pretty closed-ended. Notably, there's no visual illusion as a cantrip, which you could otherwise have fun with.And cantrips don't compare to the impact even low-level well-chosen spells can have. Fear and grease work perfectly well as 1st level spells, even when I'm 11th level. Longstrider is great for giving me mobility. Speak with animals has often helped me figure situations out and avoid combat, and been way more useful than a 2nd level combat spell would be.A minor healing potion costs 4 gp, which is about 25% of a starting character's full allotment. Someone who doesn't need to spend money on armor and weapons might be able to fit it into their budget, but probably not a martial character.And what does it do for you? 1d8 hp. Out of your full 15-20. That's not really a good emergency heal. It might help top you off after a Treat Wounds didn't get all the way there, but it's pretty weaksauce.A 1st-level martial PC will probably have 15-20 hp. Recommended strike damage for a creature with Extreme damage (which isn't that rare, and means they probably have a lower attack bonus) is about 1d8+4 or something that deals similar damage (e.g. 2d6+1, 1d6+5, 1d10+3). That's well within range of KOing you in a single hit. Not instant death, but KO.And sure, KO doesn't mean death. But it does mean a drastic reduction in the group's ability to deal with the thing, both because you're down one man, and because the rest of the party will probably want to make sure you don't die, which will cost additional actions on their behalf.Compare this to, say, 7th level. Now you're rocking something like 90 hp as a martial. Extreme damage for a 7th level creature is 2d12+12 (or some other combination that gets the same average), which is 72 on a max-damage critical (and rolling 48 on 4d12 is substantially less likely than rolling 16 on 2d8), so that's a thing you can take on the chin. You sure won't like it, but it's not going to instantly drop you, which means you're still an asset to the group instead of a liability.That's what I've been mostly playing, on both sides of the screen. But my point on the whole is that:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The encounter-building rules in PF2 do work pretty well, and</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">You need to take special care at the lowest levels because low-level PCs are fragile and don't have the resources or reserves to cope with adversity the way even moderately higher-leveled PCs do.</li> </ol></blockquote>

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