End of the [Fantasy] World: Pestilence

[steeldragons]

D&D has always used "Disease" as a potential threat for PCs. Rats, I believe originally, had a percentage to infect those bitten with some kind of debilitating disease that wasn't really specified, but somehow could kill you eventually (iirc).

Then there were the (infinitely more interesting for many, I'm sure) "magical" diseases/curses, like lycanthropy, "ghoul fever", and the variety of other undead creatures who, if they damaged you enough could/would turn you into one of them.

Some games this was fixed with a Cure Disease...some even just handwaved low level players with a Cure X Wounds to remove the disease as well. Generally speaking, the more magicky/undead stuff would require a bit more attention, such as a Remove Curse.

I just started thinking about/wondering...how bad/what happens in a world where "Cure Disease" and "Remove Curse", while certainly not necessarily "common" in all campaign worlds, might not be that uncommon either...and in the face of an outbreak of a killer disease, squads of "healer" clerics (and paladins) could just go and zap it all away in a few days? What happens in the world? Do religions start to fall apart because the cleric's magic can't cure it?

What would it take (in a world of moderate numbers of spell-casting clerics who could, conceivably, cast a Cure Disease) for there to really be a "plague" of threatening proportions? What would the world look like in a disease panic?

I mean, other than DM fiat "It's a special [magic/demon-created/supernatural/otherworldly] disease so Cure Disease won't work." Which seems, to me, kinda ****ish. How do you make a "real-feeling" pestilence that can both freak out the PCs and seem to be a true threat for the world?

Legitimate threatening pestilence in a magical fantasy world. Go!

 

[Gilladian]

Are you presuming viral or bacterial diseases that function "scientifically"? (In my campaign world, diseases literally come from "miasmas" that are created by evil. There are no germs, so none of the rules of science matter).

If so, what sort of disease are we discussing? How contagious? Spread by an airborn vector? Or by touch? How long does it last when not in contact with a host? And what is the source of the disease? If it was a single person infected by direct contact with a single animal with a mutated viral strain that transferred ONCE, then getting rid of it is as simple as curing that person before anyone else is infected (and maybe isolating all who came in contact with him, curing any of them if needed). One or two clerics of the proper level could do that.

But instead, suppose the "source" of the disease is a flock of migrating birds who ALL have the mutant virus, and it spreads via their meat; peasants shoot/trap/whatever the ducks as they fly north for the winter, eat the food; thousands fall ill all across the region at nearly the same time. Voila! No number of clerics can handle bird flu in that proportion.

Basically, it isn't hard to come up with an idea that makes a major pestilence easy to happen even in a world with cure disease; what's really going to change is that the powerful/wealthy in scenario two are going to be protected; as soon as they are aware of the plague, they'll isolate themselves WITH their clerics, and keep using cure disease any/every time it is necessary.

 

[steeldragons]

Are you presuming viral or bacterial diseases that function "scientifically"? (In my campaign world, diseases literally come from "miasmas" that are created by evil. There are no germs, so none of the rules of science matter).

I was thinking that ("scientific" -to us- disease)....but it doesn't have to be. This miasma idea warrants some consideration.

If so, what sort of disease are we discussing? How contagious? Spread by an airborn vector? Or by touch? How long does it last when not in contact with a host? And what is the source of the disease?

Could be anything. To reach the level of widespread plague, I would guess the contagion would have to be fairly fast moving...or as you note in your "bird flu" example, occurring simultaneously in multiple locations...and then spreading quickly. The "how it spreads/what it is" isn't so much my concern as the "what happens in the world as a result", ramifications of what happens/how the world reacts to a widespread disease that is not easily shirked off with magic.

IBasically, it isn't hard to come up with an idea that makes a major pestilence easy to happen even in a world with cure disease; what's really going to change is that the powerful/wealthy in scenario two are going to be protected; as soon as they are aware of the plague, they'll isolate themselves WITH their clerics, and keep using cure disease any/every time it is necessary.

Right. The "Mask of the Red Death" scenario.

What if, there was something like "you need 3 Cure Diseases applied in a 24 hour period to fully get rid of the infection"? Or is that too much of a screw to PCs? Only those wealthy/important enough to have high level or multiple mid-level clerics at their personal disposal might stand a chance of survival?

Other clerics (low levels, rural areas, deities that do not offer a Cure Disease option) would probably be setting up hospitals or tending the sick (assuming clerics of good deities, druids seeking to restore balance to the natural world, etc...). Some may be entirely blamed or turned against for their inability to rid the peasants of their afflictions. I could see a huge uptick in devotees trying to appease my world's [decidely Evil] goddess of disease and undeath (who, just running with this miasma idea, might be the source of the thing in the first place).

Might mages have/gain an upper hand, assuming a supernatural source, with, say, a Dispel Magic followed by a single Cure Disease has a chance of success. The numbers of mages and clerics of relevant level in the world, in general, being largely inadequate to the task...except maybe in large cities. Maybe a large uptick in those interested in taking up the arcane arts...

If that is the case, and peasants are dropping like flies while the cityfolk lock their gates and set up internal "vaccinating spell stations", in the wake of the plague...with a huge amount of food producing farmers gone...hmmm...

 

[Gilladian]

Going with either miasmas that create disease, or with a largish plague that escapes early attempts to quarantine it, I think the next things that would happen would be those who can, isolating themselves, yes, and field hospital/curing stations to collect the diseased and cure them if possible, treat them if not.

I would be hesitant to allow dispel magic (cast by a wizard) to do ANYthing to affect a disease; certainly not if using the real world bacteria/virus as your vector. There's nothing magical about it. If using the miasma idea, I would be much more likely to have remove curse be effective. Or bless.

There's one swamp in my world which is a source of miasma - it was created when a lich's tower was destroyed and the whole region sunk by a devastating spell-war between the lich and an army of good folk (aided by a dragon). The swamp air is miasmic to any non-native creature (one whose ancestors were not living there when the swamp originated). Bless or Cure disease cast on a person before entering the swamp will protect them for some time, as will wearing a particular holy symbol, but mostly people STAY OUT! Once in a great while the miasmic air is carried out (a freak storm, a magical wind, etc...) and affects nearby places; this is when the clerics are required to use their bless spells, cure disease spells, etc... in mass to prevent plague.

 

[le grand fromage]

I've always thought disease makes a good "force multiplier" for weak creatures such as mites or goblins, especially if there's a vector or two involved such as rats, mosquitoes or tsetse flies etc. & the goblins themselves are resistant or immune, nothing says keep out better than plague...it helps justify why they're able to control territory in the face of much bigger or stronger opposition...and for campaign ending plagues a rage zombi virus or equivalent fungal spore in the hands of a lich or dragon would wipe the slate clean...

 

[Shiroiken]

I think you can still easily incorporate a plague into a game world, even one with a large number of clerics.

In my games, clerics require a donation for spells (if not a member of the faith) or a large favor (if a member of the faith), as this keeps people from pestering the clerics for minor issues. Because of this, most would try to overcome the disease on their own using home remedies before going to the clerics. This would allow the disease to spread to the point that even if the clerics were willing to cast Cure Disease freely, they wouldn't have enough spells per day to overcome the speed of the contagion. Eventually, even the people they cure would be quickly reinfected. When this happens, I suppose that most faiths would seal themselves off from the populace, so that they will survive.

 

[the Jester]

All it really takes is easy transmission and a few days incubation before the disease manifests, and the healer squads are probably insufficient to handle a major outbreak, especially in a crowded city.

 

[Yora]

Cure disease is nice when you're treating a single infected person. But if you make a disease magically disappear, it makes much sense to rule that the person does not gain immunity against reinfection. Cure disease takes at least a 5th level cleric, if I remember right, and threre are usually not an awful lot around. Higher level clerics could cast the spell more than once per day, but those are even more rare. In any population, clerics are unlikely to make a significant dent into the spread of the infection. Only the very most rich and powerful have the means to have a cleric at hand all the time to protect them and their families. Which in a way can be very destabilizing on society as well, as the leaders will be blamed of hoarding magical cures for themselves.
Riots to exterminate creatures or groups assumed to increase the spread of the plague should pretty much be a given. Races with a good resistance against disease might be accused of hiding cures or even spreading the plague on purpose. Trade would be severely disrupted as foreigners are not welcome in places that have remained clear so far, and even merchants may not be so willing to travel to heavily infected settlements. So you can end up with food shortages in areas that are not self-sufficient. Like all cities. And then you end up with more riots and bandits on the roads, or raids on villages to steal food.
Big plagues can get very apocalyptic, even with clerics. You can get areas with death rates of 50, 70, or even 90%. Those who remain would be unable to keep society running as normal with large numbers of experts being gone and their skills lost.
Oh, and you'd of course get a lot of doomsday cults. In a fantasy setting there is no telling what strange powers they might be turning to for salvation.

 

[Manbearcat]

Curiously enough, I'm running this concept for the end of Heroic Tier PBP 4e game that I'm running on the PBP forum of these boards. Pretty straight forward concept:

- This is the 1st world of many that the creator deity made. It "failed" as the Elder Primal Spirits of the world prevailed in the Dawn War, the primordials being put down and the deities retreating to their celestial realms as the humanoid tribes were all venerating the all powerful Elder Spirits.

- Therefore, no Cure Disease and other Divine/Religion based Rituals.

- Something akin to being cast out of eden ocurrs when the 1st wolf denies his primal predatorial instinct and begins to assume the dietary inclination of an herbivore. The (borderline all powerful in this world) Primal Beast Elder Spirit is outraged and denies him output of the most other basic instinct; the ability to sow progeny. All wolves are rendered infertile and lose their instinct to mate. How do they proliferate? By their fanged bite spreading Moon Madness. It has been long since that the last pure wolf died out but the entirety of the world, and civilization, has been smote by the curse of lycanthropy. It is something everyone lives with, in terror, at all times. Its very akin to The Road; an ultra-paranoid, tribal populace, inhabiting a violent, hopeless world that the gods have abandoned (and legend of this abandonment is maintained, thus maintainnig the demoralization of the populace). Given the inherent violence and lack of divine magic of this lost world, at any one time there is a great bottleneck in those infected.

- Given that this 1st world is the birthplace of lycanthrophy, the Maiden of the Moon has sent the PC there to completely undo the curse, wipe it from the record and thus undoing its legacy in Brokenstone Vale of the Feywild (her primary battleground for all eternity with her primary enemies being the lycanthropes). The PC was sent back in time by the MotM to the point where the pestilent Moon Madness was at its most vulnerable. A time before lycanthropes invaded and claimed the Brokenstone Vale (and slew the PC and her children in her former life); a singular mountain where the acolytes of the Primal Beast barely sustain the Moon Madness through nefarious means. if she can destroy the curse of lycanthropy, she will change the trajectory of not only that world's future, but of her own future, her childrens' future, and that of Brokenstone Vale of the Feywild.


As far as all of the processes of the particulars...mostly irrelevant to our gaming needs so they won't get canvassed in play. Its just fits the thematics that the player outlined and will make for dramatic, genre-relevant, and hopefully climactic gameplay. The player will have to make extremely difficult decisions (from both a pathos and ethos perspective) so we will see what shakes out of things during play. Regardless, if I've done my job with proper pacing and exciting conflicts that she is emotionally invested into, she isn't going to spend any time ruminating on the plausibility of the concept overall nor will she break out the various component parts for their coherency.

 

[Ahnehnois]

What if it's a disease that causes sudden death, rather than a gradual accumulation of symptoms? It infects you with out being readily observable. You can't cast Remove Disease if you don't know you have it.

Once this started spreading around, you might still see an effort to just cast the spell on everyone, but that's a tall order; it's much easier to imagine that failing.