D&D 3E/3.5 Enemy CR. (3.5)

[Alexander123]

I think that a properly optimized party should be able to face encounters consisting of four creatures of its CR, although how many encounters per day is a different question. Possibly 2 assuming that 50% of resources go into each fight. What do you all think? I got this idea from thinking of two adventuring parties fighting one another and how that would go.

 

[Sekhmet]

Two PC parties meet with the exact same setup, and in theory, neither have an advantage. They will both use 100% of their available resources. It is a die-roll circumstance, the entire engagement hinges on who rolls better.

A PC group of four level 4's meet up against four Otyugh. Without some stellar circumstances, the four Otyugh devour the PC's whole and move on with their dungeoning lives.


Monsters were designed to be strong enough to face off against a group of 4-6 characters of equal ECL.

An optimized party could utterly destroy the CR4 monsters, even if the DM played them to their best possible effect.

 

[Greenfield]

You do know that using "100% of resources" includes hit points, don't you? Healing too.

That can be abbreviated as "TPK". It's simpler.

The reason 4 PCs can win against 4 creatures of equal CR/ability is usually because 4 players can come up with more ideas and strategies than 1 DM, and they can make better use of character abilities and resources because they know their characters better than the DM knows his or her monsters.

I can't even count how many different games and systems I've played in where I/we run into a "mirror of opposition", or the characters' clones, or some similar ploy.

You know what happens? Player character beats his mirror image 9 out of 10 times.

One of the reasons recurring villains get so hard to handle is that they are the DM's creation and he/she gets to know them very well. That PC edge gets thinner and thinner.

So the CR of a monster isn't just stats and powers, or muscle and magic. A lot depends on how well the DM plays them. That's one of the reasons why CR rankings in the books always seem off. No two DM's will play them the same, or with equal ability.

So use them as a guideline, and don't be afraid to tinker a bit to make their actual CR *IN YOUR GAME* match what the book says they should be. Or, don't be afraid to change the CR listed, for purposes of your plans as well as EXP, to match the challenge they actually pose in your hands, as a DM.

 

[Sekhmet]

You do know that using "100% of resources" includes hit points, don't you? Healing too.

That can be abbreviated as "TPK". It's simpler.

Yes. I'm quite aware resources include HP and Healing.
However, in a perfect mirror type encounter, where neither party has advantage, the only "acceptable" average is that one person is alive with <10% hp left.

 

[Jhaelen]

Two PC parties meet with the exact same setup, and in theory, neither have an advantage. They will both use 100% of their available resources. It is a die-roll circumstance, the entire engagement hinges on who rolls better.

Exactly. It's 50:50 who will win. Therefore it's not the kind of encounter I'd recommend using regularly. It 'might' be fine as a BBEG encounter, though (or as an encounter the pcs could and should have evaded).

 

[Alexander123]

Generally I don't try to mirror my players although I do have them face adventuring parties once in a while of their level which are generally not as optimized as the party.