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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 3029002" data-attributes="member: 19675">and other quotes...This is my error...  Almost nobody in our current group uses ANY of those rules, so they seldom come up.  They're all listed as attacks, and know they didn't do damage, so that's where my reading stopped last night.  I forgot that those don't require an actual melee attack.However...Is still an issue somewhat- KD has already statedAs if this is where we should look to determine whether damage is done by such attacks, when it is obvious that we should look to the particular attack instead.And a Grapple could deliver a similar attack as a flaming weapon in the form of a held touch spell.Actually, besides the Guisarme, the Whip is considered a slashing weapon as well, thus is a valid weapon for the Vorpal enchantment.I admit- some of us are looking at the way the RW works and trying to interject this into the game.When you're using a flail, a guisarme or a whip to trip, you're not using the attack surface of the weapon in the same way as you use it to attack for damage.With a flail, you're not striking flesh & bone with the heavy head, you're wrapping the chain around a limb.  The last portion of the weapon to strike the target is the head, at which point its momentum (the reason it does damage) is exhausted.With a whip, you are once again wrapping the limb.  When a whip does slashing damage, it is being drawn across the skin at a high rate of speed.  The other way a whip does damage (not reflected in the rules) is by striking with the tip which is travelling at supersonic speed-  it can pierce metal doing so.  I've personally seen people whip wet hand-towels and puncture aluminum cans- a whip with a metal tip can do that and more.With a guisarme, you're using the curved, hooklike backside of the weapon's head to trip, not the sharpened blade.Yep!  Trips have the following steps:1) You declare a particular attack will be a trip attack.2) This action lets the target take an AoO against you.3) You make an attack roll.  If you are successful and hit your target, you make an opposed strength roll to see if you trip.4) If you successfully trip, the target is prone.5) If you have Improved Trip, you do not provoke the AoO and you make an additional attack against the prone target at the BAB of the attack you used to make the trip.Yes it is in the RAW- the weapon description itself says that:emphasis mine.That successful hit that triggers the dealing of energy damage is the same one that is absolutely required in step 3 to do a successful trip attack.Yes- and as I said, most of the time, that would be a less than efficient use of the weapon.Not having the books in front of me, I can't say how those enchantments are described.  I'll assume they're similarly worded.Personally, having seen and read fiction in which a Holy Symbol can do damage certain beings with mere contact, I have no problem with a Holy Weapon doing so.Bane weapons, by their nature, are supposed to be anathema to the creatures they target.  Once again, I have no problem with that.Someone else mentioned Vorpal weapons.  In another thread, Hypersmurf pointed out that the rules don't state that the Vorpal weapon doesn't do damage, just that on the requisite die roll, the target is beheaded.  This is important if you're dealing with a creature like an Ettin or Hydra- sometimes, beheading isn't enough.However, with such an enchantment, I would draw a line.  Vorpal weapons are required to be slashing...presumably for the reason of the nature of what it takes to behead something.  If you were trying to make a mere touch attack, you're not really trying to use the mechanical advantages of an edged weapon- you're just trying to make contact.Amusing, but wrong- its entirely in accord with:</blockquote>

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