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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5006848" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok, some definitions:'Dump Stat': Any stat which for a particular class can be safely set at 8 or lower without significantly effecting the utility of the character, and conversely which offers comparitively little reward to the player of the character who invests in it.Sure, but Indiana is largely a 'solo' adventurer.  At most, he employs retainers as sidekicks, but clearly he is the only PC in the story.   Most RPGs however involve a party with several individuals in it.  The question then becomes, "Can I safely avoid having skill in this area and rely on PC X's skill?"The answer in many cases is, "Yes."  So the second question is, "I would like to be skillful at everything, but I'd also like an extra hitpoint each level, so how many skills are more essential to my character than say extra hit points?" The answer in many cases is, "Not that many."The result is that even with the RAW, intelligence is treated as a dump stat by many players that don't require it for their character's spellcasting.Tumble - Generally useful, but if its not on your class skill list, its not worth the investment and you find some other way of dealing with the problem.  Feats like Mobility or Spring Attack can help here, as can simply having a good AC and alot of hitpoints.Use Magic Device - The best skill in the game, but not that useful if you already can cast spells, and generally inaccessible anyway.  Hide / Move Silently - Party can get by with one member having it, particular because its only really useful at the next level if all members have it and don't wear heavy armor and that it can be easily outclassed by low level spells like invisibility.Climb - Party can get by with only one member having it, particularly because its easily outclassed by magical flight in an emergency.  Only one member of the party needs more climb than is necessary to climb a knotted rope.Jump - Generally not that useful, particularly because its easily outclassed by magical flight when it might be useful.Bluff - Party can easily get by with only one member having it.Diplomacy - Party can easily get by with only one member having it.Intimidate - Party can easily get by with only one member having it.  And generally speaking, party can get by with just one of the triad of social skills: bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy.   Intimidate is generally speaking the least useful, as the others can generally do its job if you have enough ranks and are useful in a broader set of situations.Disable Device - Party can easily get by with only one member having it.Search - Generally useful, but if its not on your class skill list, its a completely wasted investment.If I'm building a Fighter, Cleric, or Wizard (3 of the 4 archetypes), none of the above is essential to my build provided someone in the party has them.    Balance, spot, and listen are nice to have for everyone, and everyone would like to have them on their skill list if they could.  However, the availability of flight magic mitigates the need for balance in emergencies, and most classes are already used to getting by with no spot/listen.   Feats can make up for missing spot/listen to a large degree (combat reflexes, improved initiative, etc.).Knowledge is only needed by one member of the party.So, so far your whole list only produces one consolitidated skill most builds will want - 'Perception'.  I can get by therefore from your list with just 1 skill rank per level and not be losing that much utility.   Conversely, even if I had 5 or 6 skill ranks per level, I'd not be adding that much to the party since much of my expertise would likely be redundant.Spellcasters have a 'tax' on their skills in that they pretty much require Spellcraft and Concentration, but even that means that they can get by with 3 skill ranks per level.  This means that most players will minimize the amount of intelligence that they take unless they are playing a Wizard, because the extra skill points won't be worth the tradeoff of lower Will save, fewer hit points, less damage, less bonus to the skills that matter (wis, dex or chr based ones), lower AC, worse initiative, etc.  If you only have 15 skills, a human rogue can cover 9 of the 15 with a 10 INT (and 8 of 15 with an 8 INT).  It's highly unlikely that the missing six (or 7) will all impact his character in a significant way.  Plus, there are some (like Balance or Climb, assuming you didn't fold it into Atheletics) where most usual challenges only require a handful of points to successfully negotiate them, and after that you can spend the points elsewhere.  For example, he can dump Know by depending on the Wizard to take it, or Diplomacy by depending on the cleric to take it, or dump Craft by just assuming it won't come up that much, and not knowing not knowing any of those doesn't impact him that much.  It's IMO unlikely that with only 15 skills anyone but the wizard would need more than 10 INT, and certainly if none took more than 10 INT or a few took less, it wouldn't very materially impact the party.  I believe that this would consistute 'Intelligence is a dump stat'.</blockquote>

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