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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felon" data-source="post: 3416839" data-attributes="member: 8158">Folks, when I read Pickaxe's statement that he doesn't really agree with me while providing evidence that certainly seems to support my position, it seemed pretty darned peculiar. So let's do the math! I'll use the statistics Pickaxe provided to see how much impact the "significant" STR increase of "big uglies" encountered at higher levels will have against this 1st-level spell. Pickaxe cited eight goblins, so let's compare how well eight ogres (EL 8) and eight hill giants (EL 13) fare.  We'll go with a nice fair save DC of 14, and round off fractions.8 OGRES (EL 8)Entangle is cast. With a Ref save of +0, that means three succeed and five fail. Note that this is the same failure rate the eight goblins would experience. The three who made the save have their movement halved and it's likely their entire round is spent entirely on clearing the entangle's radius. Out of the five trapped, one makes the 20 STR check to break free. Hurray for him! But not so fast--that was a full-round action, so he's not going anywhere just yet. Next round he has to make another Ref save and has a 65% chance of failing and getting entangled all over again. Looks like he may've started celebrating prematurely. This process will continue to repeat itself for a while: one big ugly gets loose as a full-round action, and most likely winds up trapped again next round.8 HILL GIANTS (EL 13)Entangle is cast. Ref save +3 means half succeed and half fail. As the lucky four break formation and scramble out of the shrubbery they are hopefully wise enough to know how grateful they should be that all the entangle did was cost them their entire round.The not-so-lucky four start making STR checks and two break free. Next round, one of those two actually makes his Ref save and can make a run for it. For all following rounds, the norm will be that one makes the STR check, and then has a 50/50 chance of making his Ref save on the following round. Pity not only them, but also the DM who has to make all of these rolls that are largely pointless.FINAL ANALYSISYou tell me. Did the "big uglies" fare well, even compared to eight goblins? Did the impact of the entangle scale properly to the impact a 1st-level spell should have on an EL 8 and EL 13 encounter? Consider the other 1st-level spells that entangle has been compared to in this thread (magic missile, sleep) and what impact they would have had. Personally, even if all creatures made their saves and just spent their round trying to clear the radius, I'd still consider that a pretty potent effect for a 1st-level spell to have (sort of a no-save daze monster, mass).</blockquote>

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