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<blockquote data-quote="Ravellion" data-source="post: 5044955" data-attributes="member: 538">Hello fellow gamers!I’ve recently made the jump to Epic levels (the campaign started at 6th level), and I am very glad that I have not allowed either Weapon or Implement expertise to be taken by my group’s characters. I posit that these feats are, in fact, not necessary in the game. In practice, the math works more to the advantage of the PCs than is at first glance readily apparent.I have the experience my 21st level group often hit equal level opponents on a natural 4 on a d20. Allowing the expertise feats, this would mean hitting equal level opponents on a 2. The stats of the characters that can do this and some additional explanation on why this happens so often is in the comment below. The summary: the characters are quite close to being optimized, though I would not call them all fully optimized.To me, having equal level opponents be hit on a 2 is undesirable. In fact, even n+2 encounters are complete cakewalks for our group nowadays (which might be worth a thread in itself). If your party is anything resembling optimized (ie. all PCs started with an 18 or 20 after racial modifiers, and raised their main attack ability every chance they had), I strongly recommend you do not allow the expertise feats.What I would like to hear though, is whether some DMs really needed their PCs to have these feats? Or, from those people that allowed them, have they noticed that your PCs now hit perhaps a bit too easily?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ravellion, post: 5044955, member: 538"] Hello fellow gamers! I’ve recently made the jump to Epic levels (the campaign started at 6th level), and I am very glad that I have not allowed either Weapon or Implement expertise to be taken by my group’s characters. I posit that these feats are, in fact, not necessary in the game. In practice, the math works more to the advantage of the PCs than is at first glance readily apparent. I have the experience my 21st level group often hit equal level opponents on a natural 4 on a d20. Allowing the expertise feats, this would mean hitting equal level opponents on a 2. The stats of the characters that can do this and some additional explanation on why this happens so often is in the comment below. The summary: the characters are quite close to being optimized, though I would not call them all fully optimized. To me, having equal level opponents be hit on a 2 is undesirable. In fact, even n+2 encounters are complete cakewalks for our group nowadays (which might be worth a thread in itself). If your party is anything resembling optimized (ie. all PCs started with an 18 or 20 after racial modifiers, and raised their main attack ability every chance they had), I strongly recommend you do not allow the expertise feats. What I would like to hear though, is whether some DMs really needed their PCs to have these feats? Or, from those people that allowed them, have they noticed that your PCs now hit perhaps a bit too easily? [/QUOTE]

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