Epic Attacks

[Kai Lord]

It gives Fighters an advantage. And a person who goes 20 wizard then 20 fighter is not the same as some one who does it in reverse. Wizards are different then fighters. So spending your first 20 levels as one verse the other (even if the next 20 you pick up the other half of this) things will be different. It's about character growth and about caps of human learning. The guy who took 20 levels of fighter first will have the attacks, but a terrible will save. Probably have a lower Int as well. The first 20 levels he won't be picking up any new spells where the person who does wizard first will be able to write new spells in his spellbook for all 40 levels.

Fighter 10/Wizard 10: BAB +15/+10/+5, Fortitude +10, Reflex +6, Will +10, 4 1st level spells/day before Int bonuses
Wizard 10/Fighter 10: BAB +15/+10/+5, Fortitude +10, Reflex +6, Will +10, 4 1st level spells/day before Int bonuses

Sure the guy who was fighter first had a higher Fort save for a while, and the wizard first had a higher Will save, but the destination is the same, because both classes advance toward their playtested caps. Four attacks a round, four spells a day, +12 in any given save.

It really is just silly that a 20th level fighter will have four attacks per round, while a 20th level wizard/500th level fighter with hundreds of Epic Prowess feats and Epic Specialization in dozens of weapons will only, ever, get TWO attacks per round.

Caps in human learning? A wizard 20/fighter 500 ascended mortal who spent dozens of epic feats on Extended Lifespan, Great Intelligence, and Great Wisdom, just can't figure out the trick to swinging his arm three times a round? "One, two! One, two! One, two! Can't...learn...three..." Meanwhile his 500th level wizard buddy is creating solar systems and all the planets and races and animals to inhabit them. The ELH attempts to include a number of things, game balance and playability included, but "caps in human learning" is NOT one of them.

The Epic Rules are great, in fact I might even go so far to say as its the best rulebook in the history of D&D and EXACTLY the type of book the system needed. But when I DM epic campaigns, the first house rule I'll introduce is that all multiclassers advance to the caps of BAB and saves. +20, +15, +10, +5, and +12 Fort, Ref, and Will.

Then you still have guys who chose one path first reaping those particular benefits first, and the straight single classers will either have an advantage in Epic Feats (fighters) or in overall caster level and spell potency (wizards and the like). Works for everyone, and most importantly...NO WONKINESS.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: thx

got it... once i hear it in non-WotC-ese it makes a lot sense. Thanks KL.

No problem. Welcome to the boards.

 

[jayaint]

the only other question...

... is that with my previously-stated character... when i take cleric8 it is actually casterlevel19... right? so then cleric9 = CstrLvl20... so at the next level, would i bump to "epic" cleric levels (bonus epic feats, etc)? Or not until my little level number doo-hickey actually reads "20"? just trying to avoid hurdles BEFORE i get there, like any pre-planning D&D munchkin should

thanks for the welcome KL...

 

[Grazzt]

Re: the only other question...

... is that with my previously-stated character... when i take cleric8 it is actually casterlevel19... right? so then cleric9 = CstrLvl20... so at the next level, would i bump to "epic" cleric levels (bonus epic feats, etc)? Or not until my little level number doo-hickey actually reads "20"? just trying to avoid hurdles BEFORE i get there, like any pre-planning D&D munchkin should

thanks for the welcome KL...

Epic cleric when cleric CLASS level hits 21st level.

 

[jayaint]

prestige classes?

so all those prestige caster class levels that advanced my divine spellcasting level don't ACTUALLY affect my "Cleric" level? SO that means that I will be a cleric20/divdisc4/contempl7/hiero1 (31st level "caster" for whatever good it does me) before i can get an "epic bonus feat" due to the "epic cleric" class?

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: prestige classes?

so all those prestige caster class levels that advanced my divine spellcasting level don't ACTUALLY affect my "Cleric" level? SO that means that I will be a cleric20/divdisc4/contempl7/hiero1 (31st level "caster" for whatever good it does me) before i can get an "epic bonus feat" due to the "epic cleric" class?

You got it. You need a full 20 class levels in a core class or 10 levels in a prestige class before Bonus Epic Class Feats are available for further levels in the respective class. You can pick any Epic feat as part of your regular character feats (at 21st, 24th, 27th, etc.) but if you want the extra feats you gotta stick one class out for the long haul. If you plan to multiclass heavily your quickest bet to take advantage of extra Epic Feats is to max out a prestige class at 10th level, then continue from there. Otherwise, you gotta go the full twenty....

 

[Crothian]

Re: prestige classes?

so all those prestige caster class levels that advanced my divine spellcasting level don't ACTUALLY affect my "Cleric" level? SO that means that I will be a cleric20/divdisc4/contempl7/hiero1 (31st level "caster" for whatever good it does me) before i can get an "epic bonus feat" due to the "epic cleric" class?

You qualify for all sorts of epic feats, though. And spellcasting level never effected cleric level. No reason it would now.

So, basically KL you want no consequences for bad descion making. You want everyone to be equal in what they can get up to bonus wise so all epic chararacters will have close to the same BAB or base saving throws no matter what classes they are. I just think that descions should matter and that everything isn'r perfectly fair nor should it be.

 

[LordAO]

Another option is to get levels in an epic prestige class. That will give you the bonus epic feats without having to get 21 levels in your primary class or 11 levels in a prestige class.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: prestige classes?

So, basically KL you want no consequences for bad descion making.

Bad decision making? A character who wants to be able to cast Epic Spells at 21st level but takes four levels of fighter before going epic is the victim of bad decision making, because no matter how you combine, choose, or structure 16 wizard levels and 4 fighter levels you still won't be able to get the Epic Spellcasting feat at 21st.

But a combination of 20 fighter levels and 20 wizard levels CAN net you a BAB of +20 and all the wizard goodies as well. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it should matter what order you take the levels in. 17 levels in Wizard gives you 9th level spells, period, and 20 levels in Fighter should give you a +20 BAB, period.

You want everyone to be equal in what they can get up to bonus wise so all epic chararacters will have close to the same BAB or base saving throws no matter what classes they are.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I would only have the BAB progress up to the maximum for 20 levels in their highest BAB class. So straight wizards would never advance more than +10/+5. Anyone who wants to improve their BAB to +20 could take 10 fighter levels but that guy is going to be a full 10 caster levels (plus the bonus epic feats) behind his single-classed buddies. Quite the trade off.

The same would go for saves. They could multiclass around to get their saves all up to +12, but that means they forfeit caster levels, improved class abilities, and even a number of Epic Feats that could have gone toward bumping up the saves anyway.

I just think that descions should matter and that everything isn'r perfectly fair nor should it be.

Of course decisions matter, but I look at the system from a dramatic/cinematic perspective. There is just no reason whatsoever why an epic fighter shouldn't be able to advance in BAB and attacks up to the predetermined maximum. None.

The reason for the limitation isn't a logical one, since it completely defies all logic, and it isn't a game balance issue, since characters can still have BAB +20 plus whatever else they take after level 20 as long as they take all their fighter levels before they go epic. So what other reason is there for the limitation? There just isn't any. The reason they DID implement it is so that characters don't get more than four attacks off of BAB per round. All they had to do was say that four attacks is the maximum.

Instead, they now encourage players to min/max their entire character progression to front load with warrior levels. Anyone who thinks up a superheroic fighter mage of epic proportions that they want to play from level 1 now has to choose all fighter levels first to get that envisioned character, or they are crippled in their some of their most important combat abilities.

I find that to just be dumb, but it appears that you prefer D&D to be more of a linear "game" that has no rhyme or reason for its rules. I don't believe that's the case, but I sure can't figure out why else you'd be supporting that rule.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Re: Re: Re: prestige classes?

no matter how you combine, choose, or structure 16 wizard levels and 4 fighter levels you still won't be able to get the Epic Spellcasting feat at 21st.

True, but you can qualify for it at 22nd level as long as you took a level of wizard. Unfortunately, you won't qualify for an epic feat at that level (which you won't till 24th). Actually, you will find the costs in XP as well as gold will be VERY high, making Epic Spellcasting used more by casters in their late 20's, they will have sufficient resources. Taking the feat at 21st level may be too early anyway.

Also, remember, a 4/16 wizard/fighter has 3 iterative attacks per round and 3 bonus feats from fighter, not such a big penalty for having to wait for Epic Spellcasting.

I would only have the BAB progress up to the maximum for 20 levels in their highest BAB class. So straight wizards would never advance more than +10/+5. Anyone who wants to improve their BAB to +20 could take 10 fighter levels but that guy is going to be a full 10 caster levels (plus the bonus epic feats) behind his single-classed buddies. Quite the trade off.

I like this idea and may house rule it, good job.