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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2245642" data-attributes="member: 4937">The Abyss itself?I mean, it's the Abyss.If there is anything that is an epic challenge by definition, it's the Abyss.  The Abyss is sort of the catch all place for everything and every idea that is too dangerous to exist in the campaign.  Think of all the worst things you can think of.  If a PC party can reasonably be expected to handle them, they aren't in the Abyss.Get a list of the mapped planes for some ideas.  Let your imagination run wild.  There is just about nothing that in the monster manual that you can't double the HD, add the fiendish and multiheaded templates too, and throw at the party.  Tribes of Fiendish Multi-Headed Huge Dire Apes?  There in there.  Hordes of Half-Fiend Gray Renders?  Hiding under every other boulder.  Multi-headed Marilith Sorcerer 20's?  Serving as slaves to something that is actually dangerous.  Dretch are as common as rats.  Demons are as common as orcs.  Try this one.  "You are under attack by a horde of at least 300 Vrocks, and more than 600 Dretches." (Actually 66 Vrocks using mirror images, but whose counting).  No, don't try that.  It's far too much dice rolling, and players of 21st level characters are often too stupid to run away.And that's to say nothing about the fact that there are whole planes were everything is a living spell, others were everything in the plain is an animated object possessed by an evil will, others where the enter infinite plain is the maw of some unfathomable monster that regularly masticates the entire plane of existance, still others where the entire plain is an infinite swarm of fiendish centipedes - sort of like living in a creeping doom, and others that are infinitely filled with skeletons of every size being chewed in the maws of Nightcrawlers of colossol size. It's not a nice place.Actually, I'd have problems toning down the Abyss to where it was survivable by mere 21st level characters.  Why do you want to go to the Abyss anyway?  It's not exactly known as a vacation spot.</blockquote>

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