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<blockquote data-quote="Zil" data-source="post: 4216204" data-attributes="member: 20004">Well, I guess that my interest ends at Paragon then.&nbsp; I would say Beowulf is Paragon in the D&amp;D sense, not epic.&nbsp; While he could wrestle with Grendel, it was no walk in the park.&nbsp; And.. in the end, he was mortal.&nbsp; He did die.&nbsp; I do think that epic characters can be impressive without having ridiculous ability scores.&nbsp; They are just deadlier and can survive more things.&nbsp; What I would have liked to have seen was a progression along the lines of what Gygax seemed to hint at in his old Dragon Magazine articles with his quasi-deities like Muryland.&nbsp; These characters have just a whiff of the divine in them, but they are not superheroes.&nbsp; I guess we just have a different idea of what we would like to see for very high level play and that's fine.&nbsp; I'll just either avoid using the 4E (or 3E) rules for epic play and just come up with something else that works better for me.Are the gods in 4E the children of the Primordials who turned on their parents?&nbsp; If they are really going for the classic mythic archetypes, that's a must.&nbsp;&nbsp; On the other hand, if the gods are just mortals who have stepped into portfolios or who have advanced to level 30 or beyond, that's a different sort of animal that isn't quite so mythic in my mind.&nbsp; It's more like Steven Erikson which I suppose could be fine, but it's not really like the classic Greek or Norse myths.&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe they have done this...&nbsp; I'm not sure how we went down this road.&nbsp; Oh, right.&nbsp; Giants!&nbsp; &nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zil, post: 4216204, member: 20004"] Well, I guess that my interest ends at Paragon then. I would say Beowulf is Paragon in the D&D sense, not epic. While he could wrestle with Grendel, it was no walk in the park. And.. in the end, he was mortal. He did die. I do think that epic characters can be impressive without having ridiculous ability scores. They are just deadlier and can survive more things. What I would have liked to have seen was a progression along the lines of what Gygax seemed to hint at in his old Dragon Magazine articles with his quasi-deities like Muryland. These characters have just a whiff of the divine in them, but they are not superheroes. I guess we just have a different idea of what we would like to see for very high level play and that's fine. I'll just either avoid using the 4E (or 3E) rules for epic play and just come up with something else that works better for me. Are the gods in 4E the children of the Primordials who turned on their parents? If they are really going for the classic mythic archetypes, that's a must. On the other hand, if the gods are just mortals who have stepped into portfolios or who have advanced to level 30 or beyond, that's a different sort of animal that isn't quite so mythic in my mind. It's more like Steven Erikson which I suppose could be fine, but it's not really like the classic Greek or Norse myths. Maybe they have done this... I'm not sure how we went down this road. Oh, right. Giants! ;) [/QUOTE]

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