Epic Level caster progression seems whacked

[Otterscrubber]

It seems to me that when a caster class reaches epic levels they don't progress well. They stop getting new spells based on level and most of the spells they do have stop getting better as they level. They pretty much hit a wall as far as progression goes, with the exception of feats. Getting a feat is the only way a caster gets new spells or abilities after 20th level. Any class option you choose that does not get you new feats as quickly as possible chaps you from a mechanics standpoint.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but lets say I get to be 20th level with a sorcerer. If I take another class at that point I will be missing out on the feats an epic sorcerer gets every 3 levels (due to the class, not to be confused with the feat everyone gets every 3 levels), right? Unless of course I choose another class that gets bonus feats at that rate. It seems really odd to me that level practically loses value after 20 from a progression standpoint. Anyone out there who can point out to me the flaw in my reasoning?

The reason I post is I'm interested in playing an epic campaign but the progression seems stunted and uninteresting and I hope I'm missing something. I don't like the transition where feats become more important than levels.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, I have two paths of answer for you. One is: Welcome to epic levels! Feats are, indeed, the be-all and end-all of caster power; between Epic Spellcasting, Improved Metamagic, and Improved Spell Capacity, feats are what define the power of an epic caster.

The second is: Once you're actually playing using the rules, you'll find that they encourage a reasonably balanced approach to leveling. (This is in no way an assertion that epic casters are "balanced" compared to non-casters; like sub-epic, high-level casters, they blow non-casters out of the water.) In fact, a nice thing about epic advancement is that it discourages PrC dips, which are rampant at sub-epic levels, especially for sorcerers, who lose practically nothing by taking +1 spellcasting PrCs. Caster level is very important at epic levels due to the fact that everything has spell resistance; a PrC that, say, offered one bonus feat per two levels with only 1/2 spellcasting progression would be less appealing than just straight advancement in sorcerer. Moreover, level becomes important precisely because it offers access to bonus feats; the feat progression is structured so that certain feat combinations kick in only at certain levels. Finally, the structure of epic caster advancement means that it's easier to design specialized caster PrCs; for instance, a PrC that offered lower caster level advancement, but with a narrowly tailored list of bonus feats and some spell power ability, could make a caster with this PrC slightly more powerful than a straight wizard or sorcerer in some specific area, while keeping him generally as or less powerful overall.

In short, epic progression for casters isn't so much uninteresting as it is generic. It has to be generic because of the open-ended nature of epic rules.

 

[iceifur]

Also, IIRC, the wizard (not the sorcerer, mind you) STILL gets two more spells known per level after 20th -- thus furthering the disparity between the two arcane spellcasting classes.

-B-

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, getting "spells known" for a wizard is a lot different from getting "spells known" for a sorcerer. Two more spells known for a sorc is a LOT of added versatility, and IMHO merits spending a feat (Spell Knowledge). Two more spells known for a wizard? Well, a well-built wizard who's spent the right amount of cash is going to have a good chunk of the available spells anyway. Also, the Auto Metamagic feats are much better for a sorc than a wizard, as is Improved Metamagic, since the sorc can more flexibly and easily use metamagic than the wizard.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Well, getting "spells known" for a wizard is a lot different from getting "spells known" for a sorcerer. Two more spells known for a sorc is a LOT of added versatility, and IMHO merits spending a feat (Spell Knowledge). Two more spells known for a wizard? Well, a well-built wizard who's spent the right amount of cash is going to have a good chunk of the available spells anyway. Also, the Auto Metamagic feats are much better for a sorc than a wizard, as is Improved Metamagic, since the sorc can more flexibly and easily use metamagic than the wizard.

Didn't intend this to degenerate into a who's better than who thread. My main concern is why they felt the need to represent character advancement via feats rather than levels. It seems very limiting as it makes it very unattractive for a character to ever pick anything that isn't either epic spellcasting, extra slots (i'm speaking for my sorcerer here of course)
or improved spell capacity until you have level 16 slots and can . Who is gonna ever get anything else. Not to mention that it makes it a rather uneventful thing to level if it is a level where you don't get a feat.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The problem is that granting benefits due to class level on top of the feats would a) be a difficult system to extend infinitely, which is after all the point of the epic advancement system and b) be really too powerful for the base classes. Keep in mind that the sorcerer doesn't actually gain ANY level-based benefits, let alone bonus feats, at non-epic levels; true, he gains higher-level spells, but the feat system takes care of that. Likewise, the sorc has "dead levels" before reaching epic level; at odd-numbered levels, the poor guy doesn't get anything (other than more spell slots). The epic feats replace level-based benefits, so you should think of them the same way; they're just more customizable.