Epic Level Cohorts - 2 levels behind their leader?

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

So, let's say you've reached Epic Level Leadership scores...

The 3.5 DMG says that your cohort must be at least two levels lower than you (this, obviously applies to non-epic PCs with the leadership feat). However, in my brief skim of the Epic Level Handbook and 3.5 SRD, I've been unable to find a continuation on this rule for Epic characters.

If a character reaches Epic leadership levels, does their cohort have to remain two levels behind? or can the be one level behind? the same level?

Enlighten me!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd imagine that, in the absence of further rulings, the same rules apply. 2 levels.

 

[Brain]

Epic Level Leadership scores...

Yeah, once you have the epic leadership feat then you can go beyond the level cap, but they stay at least 2 levels lower than you.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Thank you for the input, Patron of Elvenshae and Brain!

 

[apesamongus]

Yeah, once you have the epic leadership feat then you can go beyond the level cap, but they stay at least 2 levels lower than you.

What level cap? There is only a cap on newly recruited cohorts. There is no limit on how high they can advance with experience other than the 2 levels behind.

On the other hand, the epic cohort rule seems to say that you can recruit a cohort only one level lower...

"Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of the character’s Leadership score, he or she can’t recruit a cohort of his or her level or higher. "

Even though you couldn't get a cohort that high with experience if you had recruited them earlier. Also, there is nothing stopping you from losing levels for whatever reason and being equal to your cohort, as the 2 level limit only prevents them from advancing to 1 level behind you. By a strict reading of the rules...

"If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level. "

...if the cohort somehow gets to be one level behind you (such as you losing levels), then nothing stop him from advancing from L-1 to L.

This feat is really poorly written. It should probably say...

"If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level OR HIGHER, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level. "

But it doesn't seem they thought out all of the possibilities fully.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

I'm asking specifically about newly recruited cohorts.

 

[apesamongus]

I'm asking specifically about newly recruited cohorts.

Then, the only passage that seems to apply is...

"Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of the character’s Leadership score, he or she can’t recruit a cohort of his or her level or higher."

So, it looks like level-1 max.

My question is, though, is this a replacement for the non-Epic Leadership Cohort or does this represent a seconf cohort - so you effectively can have one at L-1 and one at L-2.

 

[Lamoni]

Wow. That surprises me. I was about to post that even 2 levels behind is probably too powerful for an epic feat. As you go up in level, the difference in relative power between yourself and another character two levels below you diminishes. At level 6, having a cohort at level 4 is significantly weaker than you with only 2/3 the HP, etc. At level 25, having a cohort at level 23 is almost doubling your power. Being able to take a cohort at level 24 is ridiculous. You could purposefully make the worst epic character build, but with maxed charisma, take leadership and end up being more powerful than the most min/maxed epic character of equal level.

I understand that epic feats are generally more powerful than regular feats, but leadership already scales in power as you go up in level without giving it any extra help.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

This is the Epic Leadership chart from the SRD.

Leadership Score Cohort Level ——————————Number of Followers by Level —————————
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th
25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2 1 — — —
26 18th 160 16 8 4 2 2 1 — — —
27 18th 190 19 10 5 3 2 1 — — —
28 19th 220 22 11 6 3 2 1 — — —
29 19th 260 26 13 7 4 2 1 — — —
30 20th 300 30 15 8 4 2 1 — — —
31 20th 350 35 18 9 5 3 2 1 — —
32 21st 400 40 20 10 5 3 2 1 — —
33 21st 460 46 23 12 6 3 2 1 — —
34 22nd 520 52 26 13 6 3 2 1 — —
35 22nd 590 59 30 15 8 4 2 1 — —
36 23rd 660 66 33 17 9 5 3 2 1 —
37 23rd 740 74 37 19 10 5 3 2 1 —
38 24th 820 82 41 21 11 6 3 2 1 —
39 24th 910 91 46 23 12 6 3 2 1 —
40 25th 1000 100 50 25 13 7 4 2 1 —
per +1 +1/2* +100** † † † † † † † † †

 

[Brain]

What level cap? There is only a cap on newly recruited cohorts. There is no limit on how high they can advance with experience other than the 2 levels behind.

Ok, I can see the point here. Strictly from a cohort point of view, I guess they can keep advancing even with just normal leadership. Followers on the other hand get stuck unless you take epic leadership.

On the other hand, the epic cohort rule seems to say that you can recruit a cohort only one level lower...

"Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of the character’s Leadership score, he or she can’t recruit a cohort of his or her level or higher. "

This looks like an old 3.0 rule (epic wasn't updated to 3.5) In 3.0, cohorts could be level -1. Assuming you are playing 3.5, I'd stick with Level -2.

Even though you couldn't get a cohort that high with experience if you had recruited them earlier. Also, there is nothing stopping you from losing levels for whatever reason and being equal to your cohort, as the 2 level limit only prevents them from advancing to 1 level behind you. By a strict reading of the rules...

"If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level. "

...if the cohort somehow gets to be one level behind you (such as you losing levels), then nothing stop him from advancing from L-1 to L.

This feat is really poorly written. It should probably say...

"If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level OR HIGHER, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level. "

But it doesn't seem they thought out all of the possibilities fully.

Yes, it is poorly written. That doesn't prevent their intention from being clear (to me at least) They wanted to keep the cohort 2 levels lower.