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<blockquote data-quote="Mouseferatu" data-source="post: 259192" data-attributes="member: 1288">Kai Lord:I think we're running into definitional problems.&nbsp; Let me clarify.Tolkien, Dragonlance, etc. are &quot;epic,&quot; in the way that the stories they tell are larger than life.They are not--IMHO, of course, but that almost goes without saying--&quot;epic&quot; in the sense of the Epic Level Campaigns book.Sauron doesn't count.&nbsp; Raistlin doesn't count.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because they aren't &quot;PCs.&quot;&nbsp; (And don't tell me &quot;Raistlin was a PC in the modules.&quot;&nbsp; You know what I mean.)&nbsp; The fact that you can't create Sauron by the rules in the PHB doesn't mean anything.&nbsp; The fact that Bard killed a dragon with one shot isn't the difference between low-level and epic; it's the difference between a novel setting and a game that involves a hit point system with no hit location chart.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />I don't only throw 4th level adversaries at 4th level characters.&nbsp; Most of my campaigns have the Big Bad lurking in the background, someone the PCs couldn't possibly handle in direct combat (at least at first).&nbsp; And yeah, some of them have powers that go beyond what's available to 20th level characters.And I suppose the ELH is a good tool for making such NPCs.&nbsp; But I still feel that having PCs capable of doing stuff like that gives the game an entirely different feel than &quot;standard&quot; fantasy.&nbsp; Again, not making a judgment about whether that's good or bad, but it simply is--at least by any definition of the game I've played or seen played.The fact that you might not use the walking on clouds skill checks doesn't negate the fact that they're in there, and apparently intended for use.The book basically, in my mind, either went too far or not far enough.&nbsp; It changes too much to feel/run like a &quot;standard&quot; D&amp;D campaign, but it doesn't go far enough in providing fodder for a good &quot;non-standard&quot; feel.&nbsp; And yes, I'm certainly capable of making that stuff up on my own.&nbsp; But the books should at least get the DM, beginner or expert, moving in the right direction.&nbsp; I don't feel this one did.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mouseferatu, post: 259192, member: 1288"] Kai Lord: I think we're running into definitional problems. Let me clarify. Tolkien, Dragonlance, etc. are "epic," in the way that the stories they tell are larger than life. They are not--IMHO, of course, but that almost goes without saying--"epic" in the sense of the Epic Level Campaigns book. Sauron doesn't count. Raistlin doesn't count. Why? Because they aren't "PCs." (And don't tell me "Raistlin was a PC in the modules." You know what I mean.) The fact that you can't create Sauron by the rules in the PHB doesn't mean anything. The fact that Bard killed a dragon with one shot isn't the difference between low-level and epic; it's the difference between a novel setting and a game that involves a hit point system with no hit location chart. :D I don't only throw 4th level adversaries at 4th level characters. Most of my campaigns have the Big Bad lurking in the background, someone the PCs couldn't possibly handle in direct combat (at least at first). And yeah, some of them have powers that go beyond what's available to 20th level characters. And I suppose the ELH is a good tool for making such NPCs. But I still feel that having PCs capable of doing stuff like that gives the game an entirely different feel than "standard" fantasy. Again, not making a judgment about whether that's good or bad, but it simply [i]is[/i]--at least by any definition of the game I've played or seen played. The fact that you might not use the walking on clouds skill checks doesn't negate the fact that they're in there, and apparently intended for use. The book basically, in my mind, either went too far or not far enough. It changes too much to feel/run like a "standard" D&D campaign, but it doesn't go far enough in providing fodder for a good "non-standard" feel. And yes, I'm certainly capable of making that stuff up on my own. But the books should at least get the DM, beginner or expert, moving in the right direction. I don't feel this one did. [/QUOTE]

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